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like *//* in xpath or whatever 13:33:55 nonge_ is now known as nonge 13:37:04 bblfish_ has quit 13:38:03 scor_ has joined #swig 13:38:04 scor_ has quit 13:38:04 scor_ has joined #swig 13:40:54 MacTed has joined #swig 13:48:52 bblfish has joined #swig 13:55:51 gromgull, semanticscripting.org looks to be down :-/ 13:58:04 kwijibo, I don't think so 13:58:22 for that you'd need to move to something like LDPath: http://code.google.com/p/ldpath/wiki/PathLanguage#Wildcard_Selections 14:14:25 danbri: in case 140 chars gets tedious, i'm here :) 14:14:45 * nevali repeats here, then.. 14:14:52 could we not avoid this with a ? ;) 14:15:55 edsu wrote ' @danbri @ostephens I don't really see what schema:url has to do with owl:sameAs or isPrimaryTopicOf' 14:16:21 so schema:url sort of serves as a fill-in, instead of using the same value in the 'itemid' slot 14:16:42 so you might say Dan B was director of the film 'Adventures of Edsu' 14:16:55 danbri: not sure I want inverse + uniquenes; I want 'the statements here describe a thing named ' 14:17:17 ... and then you get to choose, do you stick a URI labelling the movie node directly; or do you make it bnode and put an url property on it? 14:17:18 whether that's accounted for depends on how you're marking this stuff up, mind 14:17:18 danbri: yeah, instead of arguing for another way of saying it, i'd almost argue that schema:url should give way to itemid :) 14:17:27 so about is roughly dc:subject 14:17:37 * edsu reads 14:17:40 hm, more rdf:about, tbh 14:17:49 ah ok :) 14:17:56 not schema:about 14:18:24 dunno, is there a schema:about ? 14:18:25 regarding "i'd almost argue that schema:url should give way to itemid " 14:18:39 yeah, on CreativeWork, meaning roughly 'subject'; hence my confusion 14:18:41 (there's a ogp:url, but I dislike overloading of 'url'...) 14:18:44 danbri: ahhh, I see 14:19:06 re "i'd almost argue that schema:url should give way to itemid " ... yeah the design history went the other way, I think due to simplicity concerns and some microdata quirks 14:19:19 but having URIs as real world object IDs is definitely a concern 14:19:40 as is accepting that in practice it'll be a bit of a mess, with IMDB urls used for the movie, etc etc 14:19:54 so there's a danbri page in imdb 14:19:54 so sameThingAs is a stab at a documentation property to tie those urls back together again 14:20:04 that has some microdata on it 14:20:25 yeah, that's me 14:20:54 there's also http://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/george_clooney/ 14:21:15 hmm 14:21:23 so it's like a level of indirection away from sameAs 14:21:44 'the thing described by the document over is the same thing as described by this one' ? 14:21:49 while http://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/george_clooney/ considered as a Web page published by one company about Clooney isn't the same entity as http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000123/ ... it seems reasonable to want to express that they have as their primary topic the same entity 14:21:52 yeah 14:22:03 you could write it out longhand with sameAs and primaryTopic 14:22:04 sorry, i was trying to compose some microdata that would be on that page saying you directed Adventures of Edsu 14:22:06 a bnode with a foaf:isPrimaryTopicOf 14:22:20 but didn't find myself wanting to use 'url' or 'sameThingAs' :-) 14:22:54 how does it look? 14:23:46 but you aren't really talking about how to say that, as much as you are that you want to say: this resource you are looking at here is related in sameness to this resource over here 14:24:56 i'm all for the blurriness (httpRange14-wise) of your proposal for schema:sameThingAs 14:25:12 but it seems to me schema:url is already sufficiently blurry 14:25:20 i'm not totally comfortable with it either, yet 14:25:37 you're right, stretching 'url' is another design 14:25:49 and constraining schema:url and then creating schema:sameThingAs will make it harder for web publishers 14:26:15 and even some of the schema datamodel docs imply 'url' can be stretched to that use case, http://schema.org/docs/gs.html#schemaorg_expected 14:26:24 'Using the url property. Some web pages are about a specific item. For example, you may have a web page about a single person, which you could mark up using the Person item type. ' 14:26:35 Don't Make Me Think™ 14:26:43 ...though another reading/convention is to restrict 'url' to be something like homepage 14:27:02 ie. an url for edsu is maybe http://inkdroid.org/journal/about/ 14:27:16 ... but maybe not http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf#edsu 14:27:32 ... the latter might stand (directly or indirectly) for the same entity, but isn't really esdu's 'url' as such 14:27:46 so there's a partially articulated notion of control/authority hidden in here somewhere I think 14:27:51 i don't really understand that 14:28:01 * edsu is pretty daft though :) 14:28:04 do we want 'url' to be used everywhere there's a page that is primarily about you? or just for your main ones? 14:28:08 (phoey daft) 14:28:31 self-deprecating at least :) 14:28:33 maybe a thought experiment is "Would esdu put the url on his business card?' 14:28:58 * edsu wonders if Paris has a business card 14:29:08 (not that one) 14:29:42 yeah, there's a different version of the idea for each type, awkwardly 14:30:07 it might help to focus on how it will aid processing 14:30:29 which is the essential use case that http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/ThingIdentity makes 14:30:54 what will it allow you to do that you couldn't before 14:30:58 could do with a pile of test cases / use case / sample scenarios written out; and build a processing story on top of that before 14:31:21 i would be happy w/ one :) 14:31:24 wonder if there's any common examples w/ jeni's http-range-14 / tag stuff (ie. borrowable...) 14:31:31 s/happy/happier/ 14:33:29 how about Q of what markup should IMDB put into http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0010930/ to indicate the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams ? 14:34:31 processing model being, so that a smart bookmarking tool could tell if you "LIKE" the former, that you've expressed an opinion with regard to an entity that is in these wp categories: Alumni of St John's College, CambridgeAnimal rights advocatesAtheism activistsAudio book narratorsBBC radio producersBritish child writersBurials at Highgate CemeteryDeaths from myocardial infarctionEnglish atheistsEnglish comedy writersEng 14:34:31 lish humanistsEnglish humoristsEnglish novelistsEnglish radio writersEnglish science fiction writersEnglish television writersInfocomInteractive fiction writersNon-fiction environmental writersPeople educated at Brentwood School (Essex)People from CambridgeUsenet peopleMonty Python 14:35:46 Wikier: yes Soeren Auer decided to stop paying for it - I disagreed, but by then it was too late :) 14:35:52 so the imdb page has this, Born Douglas Noel Adams on March 11, 1952 in Cambridge. From 1959 until 1970 he went to Brentwood school in Essex, and his main interest was science. As a student in Cambridge he decided to hitch-hike through Europe to Istanbul, and in order to raise funds for this he took a lot of small jobs. In 1970 he left school to become a writer... 14:36:27 imagine it then had See wikipedia entry for more details. 14:36:30 would we prefer, 14:36:42 a) See wikipedia entry for more details. 14:36:53 b) See wikipedia entry for more details. 14:37:22 c) something else, or no rel=. 14:38:06 logger, pointer? 14:38:06 See http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2012-06-27#T14-38-06 14:38:43 nice example :) 14:39:10 * danbri links from http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/sameThingAs#Discussion_elsewhere 14:39:19 thanks for pushing for clarity 14:39:54 it's tough stuff even when the entity is obviously not a web page; when you're trying to talk about the thing described by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Willie it gets even worse 14:40:49 rel="url" reads as utterly redundant 14:41:08 shellac: but it's already in schema.org 14:41:15 shellac: indeed :\ 14:41:18 horrible overloading 14:41:20 if you read it as a datatype, sure 14:41:23 swh has joined #swig 14:41:26 ogp:url, too 14:41:26 shellac: introducing another way of saying roughly the same thing seems worse 14:41:41 "this over there, is an url of this we got here" 14:41:43 microdata has itemid as well 14:41:51 rather than " this over there, is an url mentioned in this we got here..." 14:42:22 yeah, we haven't pushed any itemid examples yet, but it's now starting to show up in http://schema.org/MedicalScholarlyArticle 14:42:30 itemid="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/C18.452.394.750.149" 14:44:03 danbri: would the be in an itemscope? 14:44:14 oh, yup 14:44:21 danbri: ok, just checking 14:44:48 yeah, i would argue in the context of microdata, itemid should be used, but perhaps the 'url' ship has left the harbor 14:45:23 in the imdb page there's an itemtype of Person in this example 14:45:30 nice 14:46:08 the search engines do have a bias towards 'visible' data, there might be some of that concern here - though most of that design was before my time 14:46:27 it is tricky 14:46:32 i think itemid isn't usable without an accompanying itemtype 14:46:36 which can make things a bit verbose 14:46:56 that itemscope could appear on *any* imdb page, not just people pages 14:47:52 not sure how to read your 'that' in last comment 14:48:12 an itemscope for a Person, sure; even for this specific Person if mentioned elsewhere; sure. 14:50:00 gavinc has joined #swig 14:50:27 gromgull has quit 14:50:35 lheuer has left #swig 14:59:30 danbri: sorry was working on example, now i have to run to a mtg, bbiab 14:59:52 no worries 15:11:40 Wikier has quit 15:28:21 shellac has quit 15:34:01 MikeJ1971 has quit 15:34:32 * danbri discovers that typing random bits of maths in the right place is quite pretty -> http://glsl.heroku.com/e#2896.3 15:45:34 iammyr has quit 15:46:04 iammyr has joined #swig 15:55:30 lheuer has joined #swig 15:55:36 lheuer has quit 15:56:22 lheuer has joined #swig 15:58:31 libby has quit 16:04:41 polvo has joined #swig 16:10:36 rurikgreenall has joined #swig 16:11:13 iammyr1 has joined #swig 16:11:18 libby has joined #swig 16:11:21 ms8 has joined #swig 16:13:33 iammyr has quit 16:17:50 john_anderson has joined #swig 16:18:33 Pipian_ has joined #swig 16:18:54 Pipian has quit 16:19:01 Pipian_ is now known as Pipian 16:23:00 libby has quit 16:24:14 libby has joined #swig 16:24:53 libby has quit 16:28:22 rurikgreenall has quit 16:28:47 rurikgreenall has joined #swig 16:40:35 rurikgreenall has quit 16:48:42 Pipian has quit 16:49:23 swh has quit 16:55:22 kwijibo has quit 16:56:44 iammyr has joined #swig 16:58:17 iammyr1 has quit 16:58:30 tlr has quit 17:02:26 Pipian has joined #swig 17:10:04 meisterluk has joined #swig 17:11:19 jorn has quit 17:14:06 easye has joined #swig 17:19:38 meisterluk has left #swig 17:24:11 domguard has quit 17:32:21 FabGandon has quit 17:41:07 meisterluk has joined #swig 17:48:52 iammyr has quit 17:51:13 rurikgreenall has joined #swig 17:54:34 hup has quit 17:55:15 hup has joined #swig 17:59:15 diegolo has quit 18:11:46 rurikgreenall has quit 18:13:14 easye has quit 18:16:34 ephemerian has joined #swig 18:18:15 Pipian has quit 18:48:51 http://www.lrmi.net/metadata-lab-video 18:48:53 A: http://www.lrmi.net/metadata-lab-video from danbri 18:49:01 A:|Videos about LRMI 18:49:02 Titled item A. 18:49:14 A:Learning/education vocab, being integrated into schema.org. 18:49:15 Added comment A1. 18:56:44 danbri: still there? 18:59:00 swh has joined #swig 18:59:46 hello 18:59:47 ish 19:00:33 danbri: does https://gist.github.com/3004584 sort of look like what you were talking about? 19:01:45 danbri: as a simple example 19:01:56 re: sameThingAs 19:06:06 rurikgreenall has joined #swig 19:06:07 * danbri clicks 19:06:37 you have sameAsThing rather than sameThingAs 19:06:54 * danbri ..ooOO(is sameAsThing sameAs sameThingAs?) 19:07:37 * danbri ..ooOO(is sameAsThing sameThingAs sameAs ?) 19:08:04 but yes, I think that's the scenario as discussed earlier 19:08:24 haha, let me fix that 19:08:26 s/givenName/name/ as you have family name there too 19:08:37 and put in a line implying it's a movie site page maybe? 19:09:07 e.g.

Author Profile: Douglas Adams

19:09:10 s/movie/stuff/ 19:09:27 i think somehow it's relevant that it's a 3rd party site 19:09:34 rather than his (RIP) homepage, for example 19:10:01 ok, done 19:10:23 thanks! 19:10:32 do you have login on w3c wiki? 19:13:00 yeah 19:13:35 domguard has joined #swig 19:13:41 am trying to come up with an example of where the page isn't primarily about the Person 19:14:59 i've copied this one into the wiki 19:15:16 -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/sameThingAs#Fictional_profile_page_about_someone... 19:15:22 ok 19:15:26 2nd example could be 19:15:47 19:17:06 * danbri adds that to http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/sameThingAs#Fictional_profile_page_about_someone... 19:17:10 in the ? 19:17:13 https://gist.github.com/3005122 19:17:14 B: https://gist.github.com/3005122 from edsu 19:17:24 does that even make sense? 19:18:10 the nested itemscope? 19:18:26 i think so 19:18:39 s/writer/author/ 19:18:52 * danbri peeking at http://schema.org/Movie ... can never remember 19:19:44 you're right, fixed 19:20:31 it's this embedded case that i'm curious about 19:21:15 vs Hyperland was written by ...? 19:21:46 in the first example you could pretty easily infer: schema:sameThingAs 19:21:56 right? 19:22:41 but in the second you wouldn't want to infer that schema:sameThingAs 19:23:30 would there have to be rules about nested itemscopes and the use of itemid/url on the enclosing scope? 19:23:59 i'm out of my depth now 19:24:23 there's a problem today btw w/ rich snippets testing tool, the copy/paste direct entry option 19:24:42 but http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.github.com%2Fgist%2F3005122%2Fd02adc47a5fc14da6930333ff31803682eba51bd%2Fmovie.html seems ok 19:24:49 just basic syntax/parsing 19:25:48 * danbri tries thinking a bit harder 19:26:27 karstensrage has quit 19:26:28 not quite getting either of your posts 19:26:34 oh well 19:26:41 i guess in the second example 19:27:01 what is the assertion you would get out of the page? 19:27:23 the use of sameThingAs 19:27:24 but yeah, re syntax, just read it like rdf 19:27:31 so there's always an entity you're talking about 19:27:33 so what rdf would you get out of the page? 19:27:51 the properties attach to the entity described by the most recent scope change 19:28:00 so it would be a bnode? 19:28:02 so the inner one, the person in 2nd eg here 19:28:03 yeah 19:28:04 in the subject position? 19:28:05 ok 19:28:09 makes sense 19:28:11 unless there was an itemid 19:28:32 gotcha 19:28:42 melvster1 has joined #swig 19:28:49 (from micrdata to rdfa lite is a couple regexes) 19:29:04 karstensrage has joined #swig 19:29:31 so 4 problems? 19:29:47 sorry, bad regex humor :) 19:30:26 :) 19:30:27 it would be "nice" if there were situations where the subject could be the url that the page in question is fetched from 19:30:36 but perhaps that's introducing too much complexity 19:30:46 rsinger has quit 19:31:02 rsinger has joined #swig 19:31:05 maybe that's implicit in some environments, ... not sure 19:31:12 melvster has quit 19:32:17 see http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#the-current-document 19:33:59 edsu: @about="" should match the document location, unless there's a html>head>base element 19:34:38 ok 19:37:48 rurikgreenall has quit 19:38:41 rurikgreenall has joined #swig 19:39:04 edsu, what's the conclusion then? are we getting somewhere? 19:41:14 uhh :) 19:41:38 i still don't particularly like having to decide between url and sameThingAs 19:41:59 nor do I, without some guideline at least 19:42:01 it seems to be something that people like me would fuck up 19:42:04 * danbri will pursue that 19:42:21 maybe i'm the only person like me though 19:42:26 i sure hope so anyway :) 19:42:30 that's possible too 19:42:38 maybe url can be thought of as a superproperty, and sameThingAs adds some detail 19:43:00 which is that the url is somehow considered 'in play' as an item ID / entity URI; rather than merely being a page about it...? 19:43:08 melvster has joined #swig 19:43:29 melvster1 has quit 19:43:34 danbri: still, seems to splitting hairs to me 19:43:46 * danbri tries hard to disagree 19:43:49 failing so far 19:43:58 danbri++ :) 19:44:15 danbri: let it simmer 19:44:30 that's pretty much the 'methodology'... 19:44:41 s/seems to/seems to be/ 19:46:29 meanwhile - 19:46:31 did you see http://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1206&L=bibframe&T=0&P=2264 ? 19:46:45 something like a roadmap for nextgen library specs 19:47:29 trying to work out what schema.org should do without being a pita w.r.t. existing works underway 19:47:38 * danbri will talk to eric miller next week 19:48:07 jmvanel has joined #swig 19:48:36 oh nice 19:48:53 i had not seen that email 19:49:09 diegolo has joined #swig 19:49:25 richard wallis (now at oclc) phoned me a week ago 19:49:37 * danbri saw him at semtechsf 19:49:56 asking for feedback on http://purl.org/library 19:49:57 what's your take on http://purl.org/library ? 19:50:01 heh 19:50:29 :) 19:50:38 i promised richard a paragraph of text by tomorrow about it 19:50:39