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Writing Excuses 21.11: The Cold Open - Action


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-11-the-cold-open-action


Key Points: Starting with an action scene. Demonstrates competence of character. Start in media res? Stakes! A reason to care. Moments of humanity. Establish voice, worldbuilding, and character stakes. Point of view. Prologue or cold open? Prologue means two starts! Go ahead and use your cool technique in the action cold open. Tension! Make the reader like the character. Information and reader emotional reaction. 


[Season 21, Episode 11]


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 11]


[Howard] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] The Cold Open - Action. 

[Erin] Tools, not rules. For writers, by writers.

[Howard] I'm Howard.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Howard] And we're going to talk about starting your story with an action scene. There are lots and lots of good reasons to do this. My personal favorite is that a good action opening... A good one, for me, demonstrates the competence of the character you want me to like, and now I'm on board. And one of the best examples of this, I think, is the Pierce Brosnan GoldenEye James Bond, where they begin with him bungee jumping on a dam.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And James Bond almost doesn't qualify as a cold open, because it's not cold. We know we're watching a James Bond movie. We already know he's competent. But the reason, for me, that a cold open is so important, an action cold open can be so important is that I need you to tell me why this character has earned the ability to be awesome, and a good action scene can do that.

[DongWon] Yeah. I'm going to fulfill my role as the show's resident hater, and talk about why action scenes as cold opens are really hard to do well. Right?

[Howard] Yep.

[DongWon] I think there's this tendency to want to start in media res, is advice you always hear. Because you want to start with stakes. Right? You want to start with something exciting, you want to start with something that's going to engage people. The problem is survival is not good stakes. Right? Even deep into our story,  often, like, if the character lives or not, I don't care about that as much as I care about what happens if the character dies. Right? If the character dies, then all these relationships fall apart, all these people will be incredibly sad, but, like, all of those things have so much more chewiness than my connection to the character continuing to exist on the page or not. Right? And so that is compounded by us not knowing the character yet. Right? Part of why the James Bond thing works is we have a serialized relationship with this character. We know who James Bond is, we want him to do these things, we want him to succeed in his mission. Because we like him, and we know him. Right? Or we have a relationship to him, whether we like it or not. And so I think when you are starting a book with a cold open, the biggest mistake I see... Or an action scene as a cold open, the biggest mistake I see over and over again is thinking that, oh, this is a cool gun fight, that's all I need it to be. Right? And instead, what you need to do is give me a reason to care about these characters that goes beyond just the fact of they might die in this scene.


[Erin] I recently started reading a romance novel called Love Hate Relationship, I believe. And it's...

[DongWon] I love, like, a simple descriptive title. Just, like, tell me what we're engaging with. I was thinking of K-pop Demon Hunters too,  which is just like here's the thing...

[Erin] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's what it is.

[Erin] This is what it is. But it is a story sort of a... It was described to me as a Cutting Edge, if you know that old romantic comedy, which also actually begins in an action scene. In the beginning of the Cutting Edge, the movie, you begin with the two leads, one who is a figure skater, a pairs figure skater, and the other who's a hockey player, both doing their score at top levels, and it cuts back and forth between them. And part of what they play with is the contrast between the two sports, which will then come into play when they become a pair together. But in the beginning of this, it really opened with them, with one of the main characters, in the middle of playing hockey. And what was great about it is you get the small, like, things that you need to think about in a sport. So you're getting a lot of micro tension, like, will I get passed the puck? Will I get the thing? But there was a part where the main character looks up into the stands and, like, one of their parents isn't there. Even though they promised to be there.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And though it was only a moment, it gives... It really humanized the person. You're like, this is why it's so important. And they look up again, and they see the scouts that might send them to the college that they really want to go to.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And putting those moments of humanity in allowed me to then really care whether or not they actually made the shot in the end or they didn't. Because I'm already starting to care about them as a character within this action context.


[DongWon] I would argue that there's three things a cold open really needs to do. Right? One is establish voice. Second is establish worldbuilding. And the third is establish character stakes, not just character bolts. What matters about this character? Right? And so kind of what you're describing with Cutting Edge and then with this book is you get a sense of the worldbuilding. Right? This is about skating, here are the values, it's being good at this thing, all of that. There is the voice of it, which hopefully is coming through in the prose in a way that's really exciting. And then there is, why do we care about this character? Them looking up in the stands and seeing that their parent is missing. One of my favorite examples of an action cold open, pulling from film, is the Matrix. Right? The Matrix starts with this thing that is the most vibe-y, the most voice-y thing in the world. Right? Especially in 1999, we had not seen anything like this. And it was just like mind-blowingly, like, cool and interesting, it was such a strong aesthetic. It was such a strong worldbuilding component, because it starts with this idea of like searching for this thing and then you're getting this cool technology, both in terms of how they were filming it and then also the cyberpunky hackery story that's embedded within it. Right? So we're getting that worldbuilding and that voice. The thing that movies can do that books can't do is show you a picture, though. Right? So we actually don't have a lot of character stakes in that scene. And a lot of film examples will have this problem, where you won't have a lot of stakes, because you can replace that with the audience looking at the scene and enjoying the physicality of the scene and building a relationship with the character based on how they look. Right? We like Trinity because she's hot and cool. Right? Like, that is basically what they're relying on, and it works. Right? We like James Bond because he's suave and doing slick stuff. Right? Like, he's jumping out of an airplane, he's, like, shooting guys in an alleyway. Right? These kinds of things work as a cold open. Being able to see the character builds that stake in a different way. When you're  doing a book cold open, you need to give us things to care about that character with. Right? Like, I think of Six of Crows as an example where you kind of start... It's not necessarily an action scene, you're kind of, like, going through this, like, weird prison, but you're following this guard, and then it devolves into action over the course of it. But because you learned so much about him and his interiority as we move through this space, by the time things are popping off at the end, and... Spoiler for the prologue... By the time he dies at the end of that, it feels sad because he's encountered things that are way out of his scope of reality, his ability to manage these challenges, and we know enough about him that it hurts, because we care about this guy and his relationship to the world.


[Erin] This explains a lot to me about... What you just said, in that I think when people are writing, sometimes when you're writing your action scene cold open, you're seeing, like, the James Bond gunfight, but your reader may not be seeing it in the exact same way. And as somebody who can't see things in my head a lot of times, those action scenes can leave me a little cold, because I cannot envision...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Everything that's happening, so the details of how cool the gunfight are, I... Like, a lot of times, they just kind of run past me...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And any emotional moment, any character moment, I will seize on. But if there's none of that, and it's just pow, pow, pow... In a movie, it works because I can see it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But in a book, I find it sometimes hard to track, or to know why I should.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, why should I be tracking it, actually?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And why should I be caring about it?


[Howard] This comes back to a tool that we should all have ready access to in our toolboxes, and that is point of view.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Howard] If you are doing your action cold open in strict first person POV, then you don't have the ability to give us someone else's perspective on the awesome thing that the main character just did. We only get their opinion of what it is that they're doing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] But we get very quickly embedded in their voice. Which is awesome. By the same token, when we talk about movies, that's... And comics, that's cinematic POV or cinematic third person, where we tend to follow as if it is a third person limited POV, but we're following via a camera that is looking over their shoulder. And so we will be looking at other people. Knowing that that is what movies do can help you understand how to do it with prose.

[DongWon] Yeah. That's what I would say for the action cold open in prose. Think of it as a vehicle for voice and worldbuilding. The thing that you're doing to pull us in is be so voice-y and so interesting and introduce elements of your world in nuanced and complex ways. And then the last thing you're doing is giving us stakes. Stakes are the failure point, but the hook is the voice and the world. Right? When you're doing that. That's why, when we see an action cold open, it's most frequently in isolation from your main story. And that is either by a different perspective or a different place and time. I would love to dig into that more when we come back from our break, though.


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[DongWon] Okay. Before the break, I was talking about one of the things about a cold open that makes it a cold open, I think, is really important is actually kind of isolating it a little bit from the rest of your story. Right? Either through perspective or through time as a flash forward or a flashback. Erin, before we started recording, you raised an interesting question, which is, what's the difference between a prologue and a cold open? Do you have thoughts on that?

[Erin] No, that's why I asked.

[DongWon] The question...

[Erin] That's why I asked you.

[laughter]

[Erin] But I feel like, like, a lot of prologue... Like, some of the things that you're talking about, I often see in prologues.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Which is that they are a worldbuilding delivery mechanism, and what they do is they... They're like, I need everyone to understand that, like, the great shebang is what got this entire thing started. And so I want  to put you in the mindset of a person who was there when the great shebang happened, and then it kills them at the end, so we know we're not following them anymore.

[DongWon] Totally.

[Erin] I feel like I see a lot of that sort of setup of world through action...

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah.

[Erin] And it's difficult... It's interesting. I wonder if you feel like it... How well it works. Because I wonder if the danger is, number one, that people might not be excited about it, they might not be interested in the action.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But, number two, if they get really interested in the action, and then you pull them to somewhere else in the story, are they going to be like, I wish I were further back or further forward in the actual time period that the story is that I'm now having to read.


[DongWon] You really got to... The challenge of it is, you're almost doing two starts to your book. Right? And that's the challenge of a prologue, in general, is you kind of got to start the book twice. Right? And starting a book once is really hard. Now, that said, you can give us two different tonal openings, and that can be part of it. Right? So your prologue can operate as a here's the one vibe, and then your next open, that's the opening to, like, your actual plot is a different vibe. But it has to be interesting on its own terms. So I'm thinking of Fonda Lee's Jade City as an example of this. It's one of my favorite sort of action cold opens, which is, you get these two idiots who are going into a restaurant to try and rob a guy of his Jade. Right? And that scene gives us the worldbuilding and the stakes. We see what kind of world Janloon is. We see the perspective of why Jade matters so much to these people. We get to see what is capable... What people are capable of doing with Jade, because it... Surprise, the robbery doesn't go smoothly. And, we get all this voice of the world and the characters and the vibes and the stakes of these two idiots trying to accomplish this thing, even though we know they're idiots. Right? And so we start with that specific image and that specific element of we're like, oh, this world is so cool. These criminals are so fun. I want to spend more time here. We're getting this very like Guy Ritchie kind of opening in terms of, like, a crime story. And then when we jump to chapter 1, we're getting the perspective of the daughter, whose name I'm blanking on right now. We're getting her perspective as somebody returning to this city. We get this perspective of, like, oh, this prodigal child coming home. And we get a sense of a different kind of story that we're entering into. So, you can lose momentum by doing that. But because we also have a clear entry point to the story, both these two openings kind of work. One is a cheat, in a certain way, to get all the worldbuilding on the page without having to explain it through your main character's perspective, and then you can just enjoy spending time with the main character.

[Howard] It's worth pointing out that the example that I led with, GoldenEye, technically I would say that's a prologue. Because at the end of that scene, when he flies away in a plane, we end that scene, and we do the James Bond music, and then it's 10 years later.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] That feels very prologue-y to me. But it establishes what kind of world we're living in, and it establishes who our final villain will be. Spoiler alert, Sean Bean.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Well, that's that movie ruined.

[laughter... Also... We've ruined a movie... From 20 years ago... He dies...]


[Howard] I want to bounce back to the Matrix really quick.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And draw a metaphor here. The Wachowski's invented the bullet time photography rig...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Howard] Which was essentially looping a set of 100 cameras or something...

[DongWon] Something crazy like that.

[Howard] Around the action so that you could fire them all off at once and create a 3D rotation on film in the pre-digital, pre-CG days. They leveraged that technology in their opening scene. They didn't save it for something later. What is this? Well, it is an establishment of voice. This is a coolness. This is a visual, but it is a cool thing that's going to happen again. And so, when you are writing your action cold open, if there is some cool technique, whether it is using brackets to describe the way aliens yell...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Or whatever, don't be afraid to use it in that opening...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Action scene. Because you are communicating to the reader that this is a thing that can happen again later, and if you do it well enough, like the Matrix did it well enough with the Trinity fight, we're hungry for it to happen again, and you get what is, to my mind, a big win, which is I keep turning pages because I want to read something like that...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] From you again.


[Erin] I will say it's interesting, because it creates... I'm always interested in... When stories are creating a different Journey for the reader than they are the characters. And so if you're telling the reader, wow, there's this really cool thing that could happen in the world. A lot of times in fantasy prologues, or cold opens, you'll see, like, the use of a really extreme version of magic or a technology, often a mistake...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Ruins everything. And then you'll go forward and it's like people rediscovering that magic or trying to figure it out. But in the... But they don't know. They're like, oh, I'm just trying this new thing. But in the mind of the reader, they're like, I know what this could do, both positively and negatively. And so it's like you're waiting for the other shoe to drop the entire time. Which is a really fun way of creating tension in a reader, even in a low stakes time for the character when they're just playing around, because you know that, like, Hiroshima happens in 3 days, so this lovely, like, meal that everybody is happen... Is happening around their table isn't just a meal, it's one of the last meals. Or it's leading to something like [garbled]

[DongWon] Well, The Matrix, again, is a great example of this. We see Trinity do the cool bullet time Jump, and then the rest of the movie is when does Neo get to do that? How is he going to go on his hero's journey, to call back to an episode a while back, but how is he going to get to the point where he is able to do the thing that she does. So we get sort of this magic system moment early on of, like, here's how she can break the reality while inside the Matrix. And then he's going to build his way up to doing that. Right? So we get that tease of a possibility. But, also, it is so... Howard, you're absolutely right. Where the Matrix is a primarily voice forward opening. Right? And if you think about all of the Cinematic tools being put on display there, from the technology to the costume design to that horrible green palette that everything has, is this idea of like... They're using voice to pull us in. Right? And so, I'm going to disrupt the idea of this episode a little bit at the end here, which is think less about whether or not you're starting with an action scene, and think more about what tool you're deploying to pull readers in. Right? So, I think action openings are often voice openings, and I think that the Matrix opening has more in common with, for example, the start of the movie Alien, which again is establishing a voice, establishing an aesthetic, and a technology, and pulls you into this incredibly slow pan through the ship, as it shows you the soundscape, it shows you the slowness of things, it shows you the way the technology looks and feels in this movie, which is going to matter a lot more than where the story ends up in the craziness at certain points.


[Howard] I want to enumerate some things, kind of summarize a little bit. DongWon, early on, you ticked off three elements you wanted an opening to do. You wanted...

[DongWon] It was voice, worldbuilding...

[Howard] Voice, worldbuilding...

[DongWon] And stakes.

[Howard] And stakes. And, Erin, you mentioned tension as something you want the reader to feel. And I've said I want the reader to like the character.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Howard] I see these as parallel categories. There's the informational category, I'm giving you information about voice, about world, about character stakes. And there is the reader reaction emotional category of I like the character, you are making me tense, you are... And I'm going to add one just because I want to have three... You are making me interested enough to keep turning the pages. As you are crafting your openings, you need to be thinking about doing all of those jobs...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Howard] With your words. And that's the part that's so tricky.


[DongWon] Yeah. And just to explain a thing, for me, stakes is tension. They're the same thing in my mind. Character stakes is what introduces and maintains tension, and that is also tied up with how you feel about the character in terms of liking them. So I think we're all agreed and kind of saying something very similar. I just wanted to be clear about that.


[Erin] Yeah. And I just wanted to say that something that I've found is that in working with students who are really used to visual media...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] They're used to playing games or used to watching things, is that a lot of that work is happening in ways that are not explicit. So a thing that's explicit on the screen is the action. Like, this  guy shot that guy in the face. That is a thing that we know happened. But the, like, I like this guy because, like, after his first three attempts to, like, shoot the guy didn't work, he found another way to do it with, like, a stapler, and, wow, that was really ingenious. Made him seem really competent, made me like him. I understand the stakes because all these different things that we're talking about. And so something that I would challenge people to do is when you're looking at action scenes, if you're patterning a written one after something that's visual, actually go through and look at an action scene and write down all the things that are happening in you. The things that you are thinking, the things that you are doing to fill in the gaps between the actions. Because those are the things that you're going to have to put on the page that the  cinematographer and the actors and the music do when you're in a visual form.

[Howard] And I would just like to lean in and say, damn it, Erin, that's the homework I was going to give. Like. literally...

[DongWon] You just gave the homework.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Word for word. Very nearly word for word. Okay. And so, fair listener, I'm sorry. I'm just going to repeat what Erin said in my own words. It's homework time. Okay?


[Howard] Take an action cold open from a movie, and sit down and write the things that are happening in it, in terms of worldbuilding, in terms of setting stakes, in terms of defining characters, in terms of how it makes you feel, with regard to tension, with regard to liking the characters. Make notes about all of those things that happened and how they were done. And then, attempt to write a version of that scene that does the same things using words.


[DongWon] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
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[personal profile] mbarker
 Writing Excuses 21.10: The Cold Open - Voice

From https://writingexcuses.com/21-10-the-cold-open-voice


Key Points: Voice? Sound, cadence, rhythm... Voice-driven openings. Someone ruminating about something. Aesthetic voice: cadence, rhythm, tone. Story questions. Reason to care. Genre. Failure? Writer trying to figure out what the story is, so the ruminations have no significance or bearing on the story. An interesting person thinking about an interesting thing for an interesting reason. Authority and control. Make it interesting, dynamic, engaging. Don't be too flowery. Beware purple prose. Feels like poetry, like a song. Beware lack of focus, so much ornamentation that the reader doesn't know where to focus. Songs! Voice-driven openings filter readers. It also gives the reader a lens or filter to use. Usually both things at once, voice and action. Interesting characters need to deal with something. Some transition. Do it for a reason. Listen to people. Use movement, songs, other prose to get the rhythm. Read your prose out loud! Use voice sparingly. Balance action and voice. 


[Season 21, Episode 10]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 10]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] The Cold Open - Voice.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Erin] And I'm super excited today about voice as a way to open a novel, a story, a whatever you're writing. We've been talking a little bit about the idea that there is a difference between an action-focused opening and a voice-focused opening. And, of course, those are a spectrum, but if it is a spectrum, I prefer to be on the far voice side of things. So, I'm interested to find out why am I doing that, and what am I gaining from it? Mary Robinette, you're the one who sort of introduced this, like, interesting balance that we're standing on. So what would you say a voice-driven opening has in it?

[Mary Robinette] Well, I have to give credit that I became aware of the distinction from Donald Moss. I took one of his classes on opening, and he talked about this as the thing that is kind of one of the pieces that is hooking the reader and bringing them in. In an action-driven opening, it is... Which we'll talk about in depth next week... It is... There's a character who is doing a thing, and that pulls you into the story, an interest in what they're doing. With a voice-driven opening, the thing that pulls you in initially is the sound, the cadence, the rhythm, all of those things for the voice. And these are like... Most stories have both of these things happening. There is a voice and there is action. But there are some that are... That there's nothing happening. So I'm going to give you an example of a voice-driven opening, which I think most people will recognize. But in a voice-driven opening, it's a character who's ruminating about something. There's a thing that they are pondering, or... And it's not always... The character can sometimes be the narrator.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And not someone who's going to appear in the story. But, here's an example:


Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly 98 million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.


[Chuckles]

[Erin] This is [garbled] by your voice, when you read those words.

[Mary Robinette] Well, I think, like... I have tried to read this... I can read this in my normal voice, but it calls out for that...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Among other things.

[DongWon] Well, I mean, that's part of the specificity of voice is that you're hearing a voice with it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But there's nothing happening in this. There's absolutely no action. There's not even a character in this. So John had a list of things that he thinks are the tools. I have modified it for myself. There's the aesthetic voice. Like, cadence, rhythm, tone, that kind of thing. And there's the story questions, like what do we want the readers to wonder about? And then a reason to care, like, why is this important? And it's not that the reader has to understand... The reader doesn't need to understand why it's important. Yet. But it's important for the author to know. And then you usually want to try to get across genre during that section. And so when you look at that opening, again, there's the story question of, like, who is looking at us that thinks that we are primitive, and that digital watches are not a pretty neat idea? I mean, like, who is this person?

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] It definitely sets up genre. Because this is... We're clearly being viewed by someone who is not human. There's a definite aesthetic voice. And then the reason to care, why is this important, as we move into the story, we find out that it's really important because a Vogon construction fleet is about to come through.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] So even though we don't necessarily know yet, when I see voice-driven openings fail, it's a lot of times less that it's voice-driven and more that the writer is trying to figure out what the story is. And so the thing that the character is ruminating about is something that will have no significance or bearing on the rest of the story. So there is no reason for us to invest in it at all.

[Erin] Yeah. Sort of the... As you were saying that, the way I was thinking about it is an interesting person thinking about an interesting thing for an interesting reason.

[Mary Robinette] That's a great way to say it.

[Erin] And it sounds like if any of those three is not interesting, like, their voice is very, like, monotonous for whatever reason, it doesn't have a lot of rhythm and cadence, they're... The story question is, like, should I eat peanut butter and jelly today? And the reason they're thinking about it is, it's Tuesday. Like, unless they're about to get hit by a meteor two seconds after this happens...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's not really... I mean, you can have a... Like, an aggressively boring voice, boring reason, like The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, I think. Isn't that the one that's about a guy who's like... He's living a really, really boring life.

[DongWon] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Erin] And just wishes his life was better.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so some of the opening is like forcing you to live his really, like, boring life. But I think as long as one of those three is interesting, or all three of those things are interesting, then it really works.


[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I think when we talk about voice-driven openings, it is that thing that I was talking about in an earlier episode about authority and control. Right? This is a place for you to really exert control over your reader, in a certain way, and you're going to be like, no no no no no no. Slow down. We're going to look at this really simple quiet thing. We're going to talk about why pocket... Or digital watches are a neat idea, and how silly that is. Right? We're going to be in a particular perspective and experience something in a very controlled way at the pace that I want you to. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] So if that is eating a peanut butter sandwich for some reason, then you have to make that interesting. Right? You have to make that dynamic. And this really relies on a lot of the prose tools that we've learned, around rhythm, musicality, word choice, sentence structure, all those things you have to be interesting and engaging. And I think where a voice-driven opening can fall flat is one, by being too flowery. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[DongWon] I think the failure mode of a voice-driven opening is what we call purple prose. Right? Of something that just goes so out of pocket, so deep off the one end of it that you're like, okay, this is just word salad. I don't know what's happening here.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] The good version of that uses all of the tools available to you, and the one that I think about the most is rhythm and musicality. I think what drives a voice-driven opening is that thing. of it almost feels like a poem, it almost feels like a song. And that cadence is bringing you deeper into the story, even though no action is happening yet. And so I think that's one thing I want you to think about, is think about epic poetry, think about how Homeric verse grabs you and pulls you in. Think about how Seamus Heaney grabs you and pulls you in, in his translation of Beowulf. Right? Those kinds of things are the things I think to really think about when you're like, How do I set up a long story using just the tools I have at my disposal for description?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. The... I'm really glad you said all of that, particularly mentioning purple prose, because I think the problem... It's the same problem on two different scales. The problem with purple prose is that people put in so much ornamentation into the language that you don't know where to focus. And when you have a voice-driven opening that is not about a specific thing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Let that reader doesn't know where to focus or why they should be paying attention.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] And so, like the thing with The Hitchhiker's Guide is this is about Earth, like that's... We start far out, and we zoom in, but it is just about Earth. It's not about anything else. It's not about the Vogon's coming in, it's not about any of those other things. It's just one thing that it's about. So I think that's one of the things that you can also think about is where do I want to put my readers attention and why?

[Erin] Yeah. I also think, like, you're talking about epic poetry. But I also think just songs.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So, songs have to catch you really fast. They all... A song is very hooky, in the sense that, like, you don't have, like, a thousand pages to get into that song. And so thinking about songs that you like... Why is it that... If you have a song that you're like, I really feel emotional whenever I listen to this particular song, what is it that it's doing? Now there's certain tools we can't use because they're musical, but a lot of times you can see, if the cadence speeds up, that's something that you can emulate. If they're using a particular rhythm, and I like to talk about sort of, like, the technical, like, poetic terms. So, like you have your iambs, which is like, if I remember, like the da dum da dum da dum da dum. And then you have, like, your trochee, which is the other way, dat dum dat dum dat dum dat dum. In fact, when I was looking at examples of trochee, somebody was saying that Taylor Swift uses them a lot. Nice to... Meet you... Where you... Been... It's very, like, rhythmic, and then it changes. So it establishes a rhythm, and then it changes. When music swells, that could be you using more interesting words or having a story question that comes to the front, because you can't swell the music, but you can swell the meaning.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah...

[Erin] And so thinking about what is a song doing to capture that rhythm, and why... Not to say that your story can't be let the bodies hit the floor, but I think sometimes like, with purple prose, it's like a really... Like a screamo...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Like [screaming]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, that's a lot. For 3 minutes, it's great. For an entire book, it's maybe a lot.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And maybe not everyone is your audience for that. So thinking about what can grab you and therefore how you can grab other people. And with that, we are going to take a short break.


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[Erin] I think right before we went to break, DongWon, you looked like you had something to say.

[DongWon] Yeah. I... One thing I was thinking about, and I think one of the uses of a voice-driven opening, is a little bit filtering your reader. I think it... One thing to think about, with particularly a voice-driven opening, is that some readers will bounce off of it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] There are readers who will pick this up and be like, this isn't for me, this isn't my kind of thing. And I would argue that's a very good thing. What you want to do, in the early pages of your book, are communicate, this book isn't for everyone, this book is for you, Dear reader. And if that reader's like, no, no, no, no, not me, this is for somebody else. They close it and walk away, that's totally fine. You're trying to find your audience. And the way to find your audience is by being fully yourself in an engaging and interesting way. So a voice-driven thing is often communicating things about genre and tone and voice in a way that is specific enough that people will bounce off of it. So if you are out there taking your voice-driven opening to your crit group and half the group is being like, I don't get this, and half the group is like, I love this, then congratulations. I think you've done the thing. Right? You don't need everyone to love that opening, you need some people to love that opening. But the people who it's for better really love it.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah, and I think also the word filter is like one of the other things that a voice-driven opening does for you besides filtering out who your readers are, it also provides them a filter or a lens through which to view the book. It says, like, this is...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Some of the framework that you should take coming into it. Like, coming in with The Hitchhiker's Guide thing, some of the framework that you're getting is we are viewing this from the perspective of people who are more advanced technologically than we are, and everything that the character experiences is encountering people that are... That think he's primitive.

[Erin] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] And so that's the kind of lens, the filter that everything that happens in the story is. The other thing that... I want to switch tangents just a little bit and talk about the fact that most books actually have both things happening at the same time.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so, Erin, you do a lot of this, where you do actually have a character who's doing a thing in the beginning, but it's also very voice-y. What are the kinds of things that you're thinking about when you're creating that?

[Erin] I think I just don't... It is, again, like the interesting person doing an interesting thing. Once you have created a voice of somebody that you find... That I find interesting, I'm less interested in the boring parts of their lives...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] In some ways, and so I want them to be moving. I want them to be having to deal with something. Because it's like if you create a character and you like them, then you kind of want to throw things at them and see if they will catch them. And so their musings about life as a whole are less interesting to me. I'm also a big fan of starting a character in... Not in media res, but in transition. At a point in which they are leaving something behind, or something new is being introduced to them, so they have to... Which is... When we're in transition, we often reflect more on where we came from, and think about where we want to go at the same time.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Which allows us to use time a little bit. It gives you a reason to flash back to something, it gives you a reason to anticipate something. But it's all through this particular character's voice as they're thinking about it. So I sort of cheat and give myself like, what's a really cool situation that this person could be in? Okay, Now let me see, like, what their voice wants to do and how I can bring it into the story.

[Mary Robinette] I don't know that that's cheating, so much as...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Working smart.

[DongWon] Yeah. I think using time is one of the most important things you can do in the beginning of a book...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] In terms of foreshadowing what's going to happen and reflecting on what just happened, thinking about the distant past. All those things that you can do by rooting your character... Us in the perspective of a character that you can play with time in really useful ways. And voice is how you, like, paper over those cracks. That's how you kind of, like, move us smoothly from point to point as you're bouncing around in time, filling in those details. You can use the voice, you can use that to sort of move us through the action in a way that even if I don't entirely get in a physical blocking way what's exactly happening here, I'll roll with it if I'm enjoying the prose of it.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And it's like... You just were making me flashback to the metaphor that we've been using about decorating a house.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So I've been using... We've been using the word voice, and I should say that I think of it in kind of three ways. There's the mechanical voice, like, first person, third person, that kind of thing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] What we're talking about here is specifically the aesthetic voice, and you can have... A building can have rooms, and the rooms can be sterile, or if they have a strong aesthetic voice, it can be... They can totally transform, and so that's one of the things that you're doing when you're bringing in that aesthetic voice is you're saying, okay, well, here's the structural stuff of what's happening, but this is how I want you to feel when you're inhabiting this space.

[Erin] And you're like focus... Like I... In one of my very first studio apartments, I painted three of the walls a blood crimson red...

[DongWon] Wow.

[Erin] And we had one white...

[DongWon] Vibe.

[Erin] It was a vibe. I think like... But my like... All my, like, decor and things, like, reinforced that this was happening. So I think that when people came in, they were like, Murder Town? No, wait...

[laughter]

[Erin] It actually seems like this has a reason.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So I think you can do things that are striking in a voice, as long as it seems like you have control over them and you did them for a reason. And they're like... It seems like you're doing something on purpose.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Which is one thing that I like, is to think about, you control the voice, the voice doesn't control you. I think sometimes, and I do this too, like, you almost want to talk about the voice like it's just doing things, like it's run off with your story.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And it can feel like that. But, it's like you ultimately have control. You can change how the voice is, you can change how heavily you lean into it, and try to create levels. I think the purple prose happens when you're so exaggerated because...

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Erin] The entire time. Which is why I think it's always fun to go out and listen to people talk.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Even people that you don't know who are, like, the most animated, the... Whatever. They have cadence. There are times they pull back in order to get you to lean in. And then they get excited again. Most people have a lot that they're doing with their personal voice.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] If you listen to the way we use our voices on the podcast and think about what is it that we're doing, what's the difference between the way that each of us speak, how would we each be different characters in a story?

[DongWon] That's funny. I thought when I was talking about the rhythm thing, that I started nodding my head in a specific rhythm and cadence, and then I started speaking along with that rhythm and cadence, and I'm doing it again right now.

[laughter]

[DongWon] And, like, it's unconscious. You know what I mean? And, like, I think we all... You're right, we all use voice in interesting, dynamic ways as we talk. I mean, we all know someone who's a great storyteller and someone who's a terrible storyteller. That person who is a terrible storyteller is not really using their voice in dynamic and interesting ways. They're not framing it in that perspective, they're not making interesting language choices, and there's prob... Their rhythm is probably all over the place when they're trying to talk.


[Mary Robinette] That also brings up a really great tool that people can use. When I'm learning how to do a new accent for audiobooks, one of the things that they'll often do is give you a movement to do with your body in order to remind you of how it should... What you should be doing. So, like, when you're doing French, you draw your hand along and then you go up.

[oh... Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And this is... So now I'm French, I'm so sorry to everybody that is listening to me...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] But it is a thing you can do.

[DongWon] Yeah. That's a really cool trick. I love that.

[Mary Robinette] And so... And it's a way... Like, it's a way to get an exaggerated form of the accent...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Into your body. But I think that the writing version of that is the song, like putting music on that is the rhythms that you want to use. The other trick that I'll use to capture rhythm is sometimes I will look at a writer that has a very distinctive voice, like Rudyard Kipling's Just So stories has a really distinctive aesthetic voice. And so I'll actually just key in a page of that to get those rhythms into my fingers before I start writing.

[Erin] Yeah. I also like to listen... Watch, like, real people, and by that I mean, like, two people on, like, Judge Judy, or, like, a crime documentary. Just because it's an interesting way to hear how different people speak. When I was in college, I took a class by somebody who was, like, a mentee of Anna Deavere Smith, who is an actress who does these one woman shows where she embodies all these different characters, and he talked about, yeah, how do you change your physicality? How do you change how clipped your speech is, how fast it is? When you go up and when you go down? And I think all that stuff is really, really fun to think about when you're writing, because when you read it, which is also... Like reading out loud is great. Because when you read something out loud, a lot of times you can hear the rhythm and the cadence in a way that is sometimes difficult to hear it from in your own head.


[DongWon] Yeah. And I think the thing to really keep in mind when it comes to voice is that it's best used sparingly, like a seasoning. Right? You can really overdo it. And do I think it is... There are moments where you're going to want that dial turned all the way up. But don't sustain that for too long. Right? I think it's really important to hit it right in the opening. And then ease off of it, and then pick it up again at, like, heightened moments. And I think where, again, we get into purple prose territory is when, like Spinal Tap, you're at 11 and you stay at 11 the whole time.

[Mary Robinette] And it's also something that you can use to... For transitions.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, again, using audiobook narration, when I'm doing character voices, I hit the character voice hardest when I come into that character to make a distinction between characters, and then I can drop off because the reader's like, oh, okay, and they will intuit the voice in the rest of it. And so you can use that... You can hit it a little bit harder when you come into a new chapter or a new scene in a short story or heightened places as you're saying. But it isn't something that you have to maintain all the time.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's funny. I'm like I don't know that I agree with that. Hit that voice hard!

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Beat it like it... No.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But I think that like... I think the problem you can come into is when the voice, like, obfuscates... It hides what's happening...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] In the same way that worldbuilding can get in the way of the story, if, like, every animal has like... Is like a gleepglop instead of a cat. At a certain point, like, you need some sort of, like... You don't even know, is this four legs? Like, the gleepglop had four clickerclackers. At a certain point, you cannot understand what is happening... They're laughing over here... You can't understand what's happening.

[DongWon] Erin broke me.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I don't know why you're pretend... Trying to pretend that you can't... That you're not laughing...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] The gleepglop had four tickertockers?

[laughter]

[Erin] Clickerclackers.

[DongWon] Oh, clickerclackers. That's... I'm sorry. Tickertockers, gleepglop...

[laughter Peep Peep other strange noises]

[DongWong] All right.

[Erin] Anyway. So...[garbled] you hear what I'm saying, which is that voice can do that too, where you get so into the voice and the way somebody would say something that you lose the plot of what it is you're saying and so does your reader.

[DongWon] We just did, as we just lost the plot.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Which goes back to this being a spectrum. So it's about what is driving the moment, whether it's... What's driving it is the voice, and I think if you... It's... There's the, oh you can obscure the meaning, but there's also the you can forget to have any action happening.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so there are some moments where you're going to want action to be the driver, and there's some moments where you want the voice to be the driver, but it's not that when the action is driving, that the voice isn't there, it's just it's not the thing that's propelling the scene in that moment.

[Erin] Yeah. In fact, and I'll take this to the homework... I think one of the reasons to have action is the more action that's happening, I think even in our own lives, the less voice-y we become. Like, even your most poetic friend, like, if being attacked by, like, a pack of wolves, probably isn't going to be like, the fur glistened in the moonlight...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Probably more like, oh, crap, wolves, run. Like, and so I think it allows you to distill down to what is happening.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And gives you a break, and then once you reach safety, you can reflect on how beautiful the wolves looked as they tried to tear your throat out.

[Mary Robinette] Amazing.

[Erin] And with that, I will take us to the homework.


[Erin] And your homework is not to put the gleepglop... That is the bonus homework.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] But the actual homework is to take three voices that you com... That you know well or can know well. One way to think about this is a celebrity that you do a good caricature of, that you think of, that has a really distinct voice. Someone you know well, like an interesting storyteller. Just anybody that you think, like, I really understand their voice and can get it in my head. And then write something very basic, like that person goes to the grocery store and buys eggs, in all three of those voices. And see what changes in the way in which you tell that story.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.


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[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.09: Grounding The Reader 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-09-grounding-the-reader


Key Points: Grounding the reader? Make them feel fully engaged or immersed in the story.  What are you grounding the reader in? Place, time, emotion? Emotion. Where, who, genre. Tale-telling style. Voice-driven versus action-driven spectrum. Grounding in the storyteller.  How do you ground someone in the story? Sensory details. Context. Action and flashback. Details that catch the eye. Embodiment and emotion side by side. FAST reactions: Focus, Action, Sensation, Thought.


[Season 21, Episode 09]


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 09]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Grounding the reader.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Erin] And today, we are going to be talking about how to ground the reader in the story from the very beginning. And what we mean by sort of grounding the reader in the story... At least what I mean, is making them feel like they are fully engaged in, fully immersed in the story. And I think that's true whether it's a short story or a novel. A lot of times we talk about novels as being more immersive. But even if you're only reading a 300 word flash piece, you want to feel like in some ways you are in it and you understand where the character is in it. But, I have two questions to start y'all off with. One is what are you actually trying to ground the reader in? Is it the place, is it the time, is it the emotion? What do you think is the most important?

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] Okay. Good. Love that.

[DongWon] Emotion. I think starting with how the character feels is the most important for me. I mean... But I'm always, like, very emotion forward in how I think about storytelling. And then, if I know how the character feels about the environment they're in, feels about the situation they're in, then starting to build out all of that around them... That comes secondarily to me. But, you had a different opinion.

[Mary Robinette] I do. I think that there's three basic things that you want to establish at the beginning. Where, who, and genre. And I think that you can do those in the first three sentences. And I think you do where with a link to sensory details about the location. I think you do who with their attitude or their emotion. But also what their role is and what action they're engaged in, if you're doing an action-driven opening. And then the genre, you do with the genre specific details. I'm going to use an example. And I'm using an example, this is an action-driven opening from one of my own stories. From Ghost Talkers.


"The Germans were flanking us at Delville wood when I died."

Ginger Stuyvesant had a dim awareness of her body repeating the soldier's words to the team's stenographer. She tried to hold that awareness at bay, along with the dozens of other spirit circles working for the British Army.


So, the first thing I start with is not actually character. Right? "The Germans were flanking us at Delville Wood when I died." What that tells you is we're talking to a ghost. So we get our genre specific detail up right at the front. We get a sense of where, she's someplace that's large enough to hold dozens of other spirit circles, and it's some sort of military thing. And we have a sense of who she is, because she's the one who is repeating. You may not know the word medium yet, but that is the action she is engaged in. And you also know from the dim awareness of her body and trying to hold that awareness away, that for her, this is an everyday occurrence. This is her job. So I'm doing all of those things, and that's one sequence. But I could have tried to... I could have flipped that. I could have started with,


Ginger Stuyvesant tried to hold the awareness of her body at bay, along with the awareness of the dozens of other spirit circles working for the British Army. She repeated the soldier's words to the team stenographer. "The Germans were flanking us at Delville Wood when I died."


So I'm hitting those same things. The sequence doesn't matter. What I'm doing with that, the choice to start with that opening line was I'm going to give you a question, and I'm going to answer it, coming from the previous thing, of building the reader trust. But I don't think that the order that it comes in matters.

[DongWon] I would agree with that. I also want to add a little bit of extra thought to the thing I was saying earlier about emotion. I think the emotion can also be trying to establish a reader emotion...

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] In addition to... Or a character's emotion. Because I think what was interesting to me about both those examples was I had an emotional state in hearing both of those that was very evocative in both cases, but different. Right? The first was almost a sense of immediate panic, of, like, oh, the Germans have surrounded us and I died. Right? Then it's like, oh, that's so bad. The other is a professionalism, a person doing a job and trying to channel a thing under extreme stress and circumstance. And so I think the emotional state communicated about the character and then therefore my emotional state was both really different, but really grounding in both cases. Because I was immediately felt... Not necessarily embodied, because it's a spirit, but, like, I felt in the scene. In a very immediate way, because you were controlling my emotional state really, really effectively.

[Erin] Yes.

[laughter]

[Erin] I agree with that 100%. No, I was thinking... I was trying to, like, recall those in my head and I think one thing that is in there that you didn't mention in, like, the three things, or maybe it's a part of the who, is also, like, the culture and, I guess, tale telling style...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Of the piece. Like, is this a more... Like, what we learn in that section also is there is dialogue, even if it is dialogue of the dead. There's, like, reported dialogue and action. Like, we know that we're in... We know what POV we are in. We understand, like, whether we're going to be getting something that's distanced or close, some of the things that we talked about last season. So there is also kind of the grounding in the way the story is told.


[Mary Robinette] I completely agree with that. So, something we're going to talk about later is this idea of a voice-driven opening versus an action-driven opening, and I think of them as two ends of a spectrum. Most stories are a blend of them. So, in a voice-driven opening like the... At the far extreme of it, I think about, like, the aesthetic voice of it. And that's some of what you're talking about, which is encapsulating both the author's ideas, but also the... Sort of the voice of the character, their history... A lot of the things that we talked about last season about how to make a character feel live.


[Erin] Yeah. I often think of it as, like, for me, grounding in the storyteller, because I am more voice focused. It's kind of like is this an interesting person from whom you would like to hear a tale? Like, is this person... It's like the person coming up to you and being like, you'll never guess what happened to me at the grocery store yesterday, and you're like, well, okay, I wouldn't... Like, all right, let's hear about it, and something about the way in which they say that makes you feel like you're in good hands. Because even if you don't understand everything that's going on, you don't understand all the action, you understand who is taking you through it, and you feel confident that that person is going to do it in a really interesting way.

[DongWon] It's the difference between the Ancient Mariner stopping you versus, like, some guy at the bar. Right? Like, there's a difference in tone and vibe between those two things, and one of those is just really grounding you into different kinds of stories.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Although I would not go any place with either of those, just to be really clear.

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] Ancient Mariner at...[fubar]

[laughter]

[DongWon] The problem is you can't go anywhere with the Ancient Mariner. He's stuck with going into the wedding.


[Erin] Now that we have a sense of, like, what are we grounding in, how are you doing that? Like, what are the tools that you use in order to ground someone in the story?

[Mary Robinette] So, sensory details are a big one for me. I think that's one of the things that we're asking the reader to do is to sort of build pictures or words... Like images, sensations... We're asking them to carry part of that with them and to do some of that work. So, if I can tap into a sensory detail that is going to be something that the reader... We talked about this with All the Birds in the Sky. When we were talking about... There was a point where one of the characters sat down in the slushie ground... and we've all experienced that, where you sat down on a bench that you didn't know was wet. And so I think anytime you can use a sensory detail that is... That a reader can relate to, that's going to immediately make people feel more grounded, even if it's not something that they could have experienced. Dan talked about this in his... In a class that he taught on the cruise, about fighting, Jackie Chan will have a character thrown through a plate glass window, then stumble back and hit their head on a shelf, because everyone knows what hitting your head on a shelf...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Feels like. And so I think that if you can...

[DongWon] Hopefully we don't know what getting through...

[Mary Robinette] Most of us don't know...

[DongWon] A plate glass... Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So I think that if you can find a sensory detail that is... That we can link to, that that's one of the things you can do to help the reader feel grounded.

[dong wall] Yeah.

[Erin] That makes a lot of sense, but I have a devil's advocate question that I will advocate for the devil after the break.


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[Erin] All right, we are back. My devil advocacy is ready. This is for you, DongWon. You talked about how difficult it is, in a previous episode, sometimes for action...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] To really grab you. But when Mary Robinette was talking about sensory details, I mean, what's more sensory than the spaceship blowing up around you, and, like, all the sounds and the feelings and the noise. So if that has so many sensory details, is there a reason, like, does that help, or does that not help, in terms of getting grounded in the story?

[DongWon] Sensory can help, and I think sensory details are really, really important. I mean, to be really clear, I said start with emotion, but also, like, that emotion is often embodied and grounded in a specific way. What we smell, what we feel, what we hear. But sometimes I find starting in a quieter moment lets me learn more about how a person is experiencing sensory details in a really different way. So I think about Arkady Martine... I use this example all the time, but there's this moment in the novel where a bomb goes off, and the character experiences it. The way the character experiences it is by removing sensory detail first. Right? She has very little sense of what happened and is very disoriented, and then, one by one, the author adds back sensory detail, and that grounds me in that character's experience so much. Right? There's this description of, like, learning what the word for bomb was because that's what they were yelling that wasn't any of the other words that she knew. And so, like, that thing of, like, being able to lock into I can't process everything that's happening, so I'm going to focus on this one detail, feels really grounding and real to me, even though there's an overwhelming amount of sensory detail. I think part of the problem with starting with an action scene is there's too much information. I think oftentimes in an action scene, I need to know who my antagonists are, I need to know what kind of technology level's happening, I need to know what the physical space looks like. I need to know why I'm being shot at. I need to know what my goal is. Right? It's so much information to get across very, very quickly while also trying to heighten the stakes, in terms of, like, this fast paced action scene, that it's very overwhelming for me as a reader. Which is part of why I think it's hard to do well.

[Mary Robinette] I think what you're pointing at is context.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That often the reason that it's not working is because the reader lacks context. So, for instance, let's say that I'm at home and I have upstairs neighbors and I hear footsteps. Contextually, that's fine. Let's say I'm at home and I hear footsteps upstairs, but I know that my upstairs neighbors are out of town. Let's say I'm at home and I hear my cat, who uses buttons to talk, and I hear my cat say, hurry, stranger, and then I hear footsteps upstairs and I know my neighbors are out of town. Like, those are contextually several different things. That last one did happen by the way.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Very unsettling.

[Mary Robinette] Extremely unsettling.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, those are very, very different contexts. And I think what happens with an action... With the fight scenes is we do not have the context, we don't know what we're supposed to care about, what we're supposed to root for, what the objective is. And it doesn't take a lot to give context. Honestly.


[Erin] That's funny. It makes me think of how often you see in films and television, but sometimes books as well, the one big moment of action, and then the flashback. Like, 24 hours earlier, like, oh, I was just waking up and it felt great.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because in that case, it's like... It gives us the anticipation of context. The thing that just happened is going to have all this context that you're going to bring out, and this is a big promise. And you're making it and we will actually get to see it fulfilled on the page. Which I think is really exciting. But thinking about that bomb scene, the thing I remember is... I believe that's a scene that comes right after they're having a meal.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And the character's looking at the person drinking all the water, and is like... Or eating meat...

[DongWon] There's...

[Erin] There's something where they're like...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] They're eating meat, which is, like, insane to them because they grew up on a space station. They're just eating, like, a big slab of meat, and there's a fountain going behind her, and she's like, that is such an insane waste of water. And it was just like this complete moment of disorientation, followed by physical disorientation.

[Erin] Yeah, and I remember that moment.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, I remember the bomb, but I remember the like, oh, my gosh, the water is gross, and the meat, like, how could you be doing that, because it's such a different perspective...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Than I am used to, and therefore, that's a detail that catches the eye. I think one thing that's just interesting with action is we see a lot of action...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I think there's just like a lot, like, in film and television, we see a lot of things blowing up. We see a lot of people, for better or worse, getting shot and dismembered. And so I think sometimes we tune those details out because they don't feel new or different. And so... But seeing somebody, like, freak out over a fountain is new and different.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So maybe part of the answer can be that when you're grounding, find a detail to ground in, a sensory detail that is going to catch the reader's awareness in a way that they might not be used to.

[DongWon] It's kind of like the thing you were saying about the Jackie Chan thing of you need to have him hitting his head on a shelf, too, because I know what that feels like. I don't know what getting shot feels like.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] It seems bad, but I don't have experience with it, so I don't have a visceral reaction to it. Right? And so this is, again, returning to the idea of the microcosm, where I find the microcosm to be really, really useful. To jump media a little bit, as a GM, and it's sort of an actual play setting, one of the things is the players are my audience in addition to the people who are experiencing the story. Right? You have sort of two layers of audience. But one thing I need to do, one thing I've really learned to do, is when starting a campaign, starting a game, I need to put my players in a small relatable situation to ease them into the character. I need to give them a small stakes goal. And so when I'm introducing the characters, I'll do little vignettes that are actually like pretty quiet moments, but that sort of give them a way to figure out, okay, if I'm this person, how do I solve challenges? Right? How do I figure out who I am? So it's not just like a bombastic opening of, like, I'm so and so, and here's my thing in the tavern. It's like, okay, if you are trying to get across town to make it to a meeting on time, how are you doing that?

[Mary Robinette] And this goes back to the thing you were saying before, about grounding starts from emotion.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That, with that, and also the example that you brought up from A Memory Called Empire, that you could have described that scene in eating at the restaurant and made that food seem totally normal and ordinary. But the character's attitude, the lens through which the character's viewing the world, is one of the things that we're trying to introduce the reader to in most fiction, not all fiction. And so thinking about that lens, why are they doing that?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Why are they experiencing things this way? I also think about it as what is their attitude, their opinion about things. You mentioned a thing in a previous episode about sometimes... Last season, about how sometimes you'll write a character having a big emotion, that's a scene that won't actually appear in the story.


[Erin] Yeah. And it's funny, I was thinking though... I think earlier you were talking about embodiment. And so I think in some ways it's like you want the embodiment and the emotion side by side. So if you're leading with, like, something physical, you want enough emotion so that you understand, like, why is this physical... How do they feel about this physical thing happening to them? If six people get slapped, they will all feel it probably the same way, but they won't all, like, emotionally feel it the same way. It depends on who's doing the slapping, what's happening...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Where it's going?

[DongWon] Why did he get slapped mattered a lot for how you respond to that, and that's the emotion I want to be grounded in.

[Erin] Exactly. Is it a stranger slapping you, is it your mother? That's a very different thing that's going to be happening, even though the feel of the hand on the face is probably very similar. And then on the other  side of things, like, if you start from emotion, how can you embody this emotion?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So that you're not, like, floating around just being like, I am sad, but like... Or I don't understand this culture around me, there's something in it that is an embodied sense, so that that emotion has somewhere to live. Because I think sometimes I don't feel grounded in a story when it's so emotional that I don't understand, like, what is even happening. Like it's gone to just, like, feeling the feelings, with no understanding of why they're happening, where they're happening, or, like, to whom they're happening.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I've been using a... This acronym recently, FAST reactions. Focus, Action, Sensation, Thought. That these are the places that we feel reactions. The things that we notice, Focus. The actions that we take in response to the thing. The sensations, where we feel it in our body, and then the things we think about it. And it's not that a character has to have all of those all at the same time. But when they're having reactions, they're probably going to have at least one of those. When I want them to have a really big emotion, I'll like clump them. But for me, it is thinking about where does this character hold tension for the sensation? Where does this character hold tension, what things are comfortable for them, what things are uncomfortable? Using the slap again, if we add one more possible person, if this is someone who's into BDSM, they're going to have a different reaction, they're... The action that they take, the sensations that they have, are going to be different on that slap if it's a consensual slap then it would be if it was a non-consensual slap in a totally different... Even if it's the same character... Those reactions are going to be different.

[Erin] I love that. And we're going to now ground you in some homework. And I promise, it's not go slap people. That is not...

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Or be slapped. Don't be. No.

[Erin] Don't slap or be slapped. Or at least if you do it, don't do it because we told you to.

[Mary Robinette] Unless it's consensual, and we love you very much.


[Erin] But I think what I want you to do for the homework is to take something that you're opening and just write the actions. Just write, like, what is physically happening, where the person is, what they're doing, if they're being slapped, what is... What are the sensations that are happening? And then go through and actually figure out, like, write yourself little annotated notes. What is the emotion that you want to have associated with each of those actions? This is how they're going to feel, this is what getting into it. And finally, once you've done that, try writing the scene where it's integrated, where they have the emotions that you annotated mixed with the actions that you've already described, and see what happens.


[DongWon] I love that. This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
mbarker: (Me typing?)
[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.08: Setting Expectations 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-08-setting-expectations


Key Points: Expectations? What is the shape of the story? What are we going to do? Genre, plot structure. What kind of ride will this be? Beginning? First couple of scenes. By the end of the first chapter. Short stories? Small proportion. Microcosm in the first half page or whole page. How do people engage with their world? Hacking the brain and checking the label. Hit the markers to identify the kind of story. MICE quotient. Understanding the character's perspective. The feel, what is going on. Build reader trust. Make a promise and fulfill it. Let readers feel clever.  Let the reader figure it out just before you tell them. Raise a question and then answer it. Don't try to be mysterious. Sometimes the surprise can be how something happens. Control the tone, so the beginning matches the rest of the book. Use common human experiences. 


[Season 21, Episode 08]


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 08]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Setting expectations.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Mary Robinette] And today we're going to talk about setting expectations. So, we have been looking at the things that you need at the beginning of the story. And, after taking a little break to go dive into my short story, we are back and we are talking about one of the specific things that you need to try to accomplish in the beginning, which is to set the expectations of a reader. So when we say expectations, like, what does that cover?

[DongWon] I mean, I think that covers everything from what is the shape of the story... I think that's the thing I say the most when talking about openings, is, this didn't communicate to me what the shape of the story is to come. What kind of things are we doing? Is this... And that includes genre, but that also includes sort of just like a hint of overall plot structure. And so those expectations for me are really like what kind of ride am I about to go on? I think of it as a roller coaster, and I look ahead and I can see, oh, there's a loop de loop, there's a drop, I don't know what that's going to feel like when I get there and there's stuff I can't see, but, like, okay, that's the kind of thing that says, versus one of those ones that just goes straight up and drops you right back down.

[Erin] I also have a couple of questions about that. Let's interrogate that.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I love roller coasters.


[Erin] No. I'm curious when you say beginning in this case, how large of a piece are you... Like, does it take for you to get that kind of... Is this a one-page thing, is this, like, a three chapter thing? How do they set that for you?

[DongWon] I think this is more of. like. a first couple scenes thing. So not necessarily first page. Like, first page is so much about setting a vibe and tone in a lot of ways as we were talking about in the last epi... Or a couple episodes ago. But I think in terms of setting expectations, I think really by the end of the first chapter, depending on how you've structured your book, I kind of need a sense of not necessarily who the protagonist is, but also, like, a feeling of, like, the kind of protagonist we're going to have. Right? So, if our opening is a cold opening with a character who's not going to recur, I think that's totally fine. But then the action of that should give me some indication of what kind of story I'm in. So I think of Six of Crows as a great example of this, which starts with the POV character who's... Spoiler... Is dead by the end of that prologue or first chapter or whatever it is. But I got the kind of sense... It introduced me to the magic system, to the setting, to the world, but also the like, oh, this is going to be a story of a certain kind of crime story, a certain kind of about resisting oppression, a certain kind of, like, violence will be present in this story. And I'm like, okay, I know what ride I'm on now, by the end of that. And so my expectations feel really thoroughly set by the end of that. And the rest of the book continues to deliver on that.


[Mary Robinette] So I'm going to answer that from short stories. Because I think it's the same thing, but I think one of the places that people get into trouble when they're going from novels to short stories, or the other way around, is that it is about proportions.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, the end of the first scene of a novel is like 1% of a novel-ish.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And this is a really... Like, I've pulled that number out of my ass. But it's a really small proportion of that novel. And when you look at the first 1% of a short story, you're looking at the first half page, sometimes the first full page. Where you've got something that tells the reader the same thing, but you're just having to do it a lot more economically. So I think of it like if you're making a layer cake, and you decide to cut the recipe down to make some cupcakes. Right? It's the same proportions, you just aren't using as much flour for that cupcake as you do for the layer cake.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, for me, I'm thinking about the same things. Like... But I specifically try to get that microcosm in within the first half page, because I also know how editors read when they're reading slush. And that first half page is where they have to make the decision about whether to turn the page or move to the next manuscript.

[DongWon] I also think that's how readers read it, though. Right?

[Erin] Yeah.

[DongWon] I do think readers make their judgment. I think they're actually even meaner than industry folks are, because we... We're in it with, like, a hope of, like, that we want the story to be good, that we want to be excited about this. And so when we're reading slush, I do think there is a little bit more generosity afforded than sometimes a reader, who's like, I'm not paying for that. You know what I mean? That's my general impression from talking to readers, of like, oh, you guys are brutal.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I mean I certainly... When I've been in a brick-and-mortar store and pulling something off the shelf...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] To decide, sometimes it's like I decide within a paragraph whether or not I'm going to read it.


[Erin] Yeah. It's funny, I was thinking about, like, how do you set expectations, and thinking about like when I used to slush read, a lot of it was like how the characters... Like, not necessarily what they were doing, but, like, how they were moving through the story. If you think about a whole bunch of people confronted with, like, a clock... A clock table for whatever reason. Like, there are the people who would decide, like, how can I take this apart? What are its components? A technical approach for example. Where there are other people who would be like, this reminds me of time and what is the meaning of time? A more lyrical, poetic approach. And so that tells me as I'm moving through the story, okay, what can I expect in terms of the way that people engage with the world around them. It's almost like the way you think about people engaging with the way around them. If you think about the people you know, like, people carry their own stories with them, but if you have five friends and the same problem, they would all approach it a little bit differently and would probably give you a hint pretty early on as to how they would go through it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And that's... I think that how they would go through it is a lot of it. If you've ever had an experience where you encounter someone... And it turns out that they were just having an off day, that's not the way they carry themselves for the rest of their life. But if you're reading the story, and it's like, this is the experience that you're going to have, but then the rest of the story is not like that... It can be... It can have this real disconnect.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] It's like that's not what I signed up for. I often talk about writing as a drug made out of words. Which is something that I got from, I think, Cory Doctorow, that writing is designed to hack the human brain. Because that is how he would phrase it. But... That with novels, what you're thinking about is a slow release, long acting drug. You're dealing with immersion, like, often a cocktail. And with short fiction, it's a fast-acting thing, it's designed for a very focused experience. You may go through different emotions while you're taking that to treat whatever symptom that you're trying to treat. But that you are picking it up for a reason. And that first page is kind of like checking the label to see is this going to address the symptoms I have?

[DongWon] Yeah. In terms of hacking the human brain, I think about it in terms of pattern recognition. Right? I... I talk about this a lot. Human brains are really wired for pattern recognition, it's like how our cognition works. And so storytelling is our way of communicating patterns that we've observed to other people and to Future Generations. Like, one of the things that makes humans special quote unquote is our ability to discover and communicate information and dangers across generational divides and communities. And so storytelling is kind of how we do that. Right? And so what you're trying to do in the opening is hack that process. You're trying to get me to match the patterns that exist in my brain of... So when I say the shape of the story, I want you just to like... I don't need you to tell me what's going to happen. I need you to hit certain markers that will activate my brain that goes, oh, I'm in a Law and Order episode, or, oh, I'm in a romance, or, oh, farm boy is going to find a sword in like three pages. You know what I mean?


[Mary Robinette] This is one of the places that I often reach for the MICE quotient. Because that means that in the beginning, I can have a small version of that problem happen. So if it's a milieu story, which is... it's about crossing thresholds and navigating, then I can begin with a little bit of a navigational problem at the beginning. If it's about a character story, I can begin with a little bit of angst. It's not the big angst yet. If it's an event story, something small goes wrong. It doesn't have to be the big thing. A lot of times when you're reading horror, there's just something that is out of place and unsettling. But it's not... like the haunted object has not yet hit the page. So often just saying, like, this is going to be a story about the status quo being disrupted, this is going to be a story about... Where we're going to have to be dealing with trying to be kinder to our self. Like, this is... These often help me make decisions about the kinds of information to give the reader in the beginning to set the expectations for what I want to have happen later on in the story.


[DongWon] I think it's really important that it comes down to perspective. Understanding the character's perspective, how they approach a problem, I think... One of my favorite openings is Lee Child, I be... Is it the first Jack Reacher novel? I think it's called The Killing Floor. And it starts with him getting arrested in a diner. And the main thing that strikes me in that is it's a very staccato opening, because you just feel Reacher tactically assessing everything in the diner. Of like, oh, this is, like, vulnerabilities, these are my entrances and exits, as these cops pull up and start coming towards the diner to arrest him. And you just... Moving through his perspective tells me everything I need to know about this character, everything I need to know about the story I'm about to get, which is going to be a very smart man dealing with very violent situations. And that is precisely what the book is going to deliver for the next however many pages, and it's a great thrill ride.


[Erin] I think sometimes it's about, like, the character, and sometimes it's about the feel, like maybe the milieu, the what is going on. I was thinking about Law and Order, because you mentioned it earlier. And in the, like, original Law and Order, openings are always two New Yorkers talking about something deeply New York-y.

[laughter]

[Erin] And so they stumble over a body.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And I think that really sets, like, place is important, like, there's a New York atmosphere, especially to early season Law & Order that that captures. Like it doesn't start with the victim, it doesn't start with the body already there. It's them being like, oh, I can't believe I gotta be in this rent controlled apartment. Oh, no...

[DongWon] Fo'ged about it. Ah'm working here.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Exactly. And I think it's like, okay, that gives you a sense of what you are getting from the story. And it's like if you liked this...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You can get more of it. This is the expectation and we will fulfill it.

[Mary Robinette] Yes. It's the [garbled Brooklyn accents?]

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] So we're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to talk about some more tools for building reader trust.


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[Mary Robinette] Welcome back. And, as part of building our reader trust, I'm going to fulfill the promise that I made before our break and we are going to talk about how to do that. Because that's one of the important things that you're doing in the beginning, especially as a debut author, especially early career, or just... The honest thing is that if someone has never heard of you, even if you're five books in, you're a debut author to them. I had the joy of introducing someone to this author they had never heard of before, a little-known author called Ursula K. Le Guin...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And so for them, Ursula was a debut author and had to build reader trust. So, like, wherever you are, you have to build reader trust. What are some of the tools that we can use to do that?

[DongWon] I think part of it is... You kind of mentioned this in a previous episode, but you make a promise and then you fulfill it. Right? You make some... You set some small expectation and then you pay it off. And that can be as little as like... I wanted to have a sandwich, oh, I have a sandwich. You know what I mean? And just like having... Just showing this thing in a very small way... And it's almost like animal training in a certain way, of, like, I'm going to set an expectation, I'm going to give you your treat. Proving that I'm a reliable source of treats. Now, I'm going to make a big promise, and you're going to get that treat by the end of this book.

[Erin] I think it's also, like, letting readers feel clever...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Is always a great way... Who doesn't like to feel clever? So in a book in which you start with a sandwich, even something as simple as having a character gather the ingredients for a sandwich, so a reader will be like, oh, they're making a sandwich, I can tell, like, they've got turkey there and lettuce and tomato. And then they're like, as I enjoyed the sandwich, just for one second you get to go, like, just like I knew they were going to do. Which makes you feel like I get the story. What I expected from what you gave. All the ingredients is what it was, and I'm smart. And everyone loves that.

[DongWon] Because that's part of the relationship, Trust, too. I'm trusting you to figure out that this is a sandwich one line before I say it's a sandwich. Right? And I think that's one thing that you should think about in reveals in general is let the reader figure it out right before you tell them. You know what I mean? Don't... If you're trying to completely surprise them, it feels bad. If you let them be like, um, this is a sandwich. Hah, I knew it was a sandwich. I think that is a really satisfying interaction, and builds that trust, because if the author is saying to the reader, hey, I know you're a smart reader and you know that I know how to build a reveal. I think once you start building that rapport, that relationship between creator and audience, that's going to create a really fun experience of reading this book.


[Mary Robinette] I think... Absolutely. I think with that, one of the other variations on that is specifically raising a question in their brain and then answering it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Which I wound up doing... It's one of the tools that I use in With Her Serpent Locks, because there was a thing that I was trying to do with that particular story. Which I... Like, the surprise that, ooh, look, we are actually dealing with Greek mythology. But, to start with, to get to the place where I could reveal that, I had to build reader trust. And I do it by saying, hey, cuz, as my starting line, and that raises the question, who's talking?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And then within the first paragraph, I'm like, her cousin wanted to visit, the asshole favorite grandson. So I immediately answer that question. And one of the things that I've found is that if you raise a question, and it's a small question, and you immediately provide the answer, you raise it and you provide the answer, and you raise it and you provide the answer, then you can raise a question and not provide the answer...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And at that point, the reader is like, ah, I understand now. They are going to give me the information I need at the point that I need it, so I don't need it right now.

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly.


[Mary Robinette] And that's when you can start playing. But what I see the failure mode of that is people raising up questions because they want to be mysterious. They want the reader to figure things out. But they aren't giving them the trust and... To know that they're going to get the tools to figure it out. And so it just makes the reader feel ungrounded and unsafe.

[DongWon] The thing I'm always telling... When I'm giving critiques on opening sections, I'm always like, just tell people stuff. Just tell people how your world works. You don't need to be mysterious about it. Just tell me, like, this is a mystery or this is what they're thinking about. Or let them solve problems early. And that lets you... Yeah. Have the big questions later. But I think there's such a feeling for... I see this a lot in TTRPGs, actually, too, of GM's being like, oh, I can't tell them this yet, because that has to be the big reveal. But sometimes I'm like, no, you can just be like, this is the big bad, this is the villain, he's bad. We're going to spend the rest of the time chasing this man. And that can be a really fun narrative thing. Right? Not everything has to be a surprise.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[Erin] And sometimes the surprise can be how it happens...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] Not that it happens.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] I mean, the entire Final Destination series is basically like, you goin' die. But how?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And where? And, like, in what horrible way?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And I think about that with one of the... I think the very first story I ever published was a story in which I wanted there to be this, like, big surprise at the end, and it just was not working for people. And so I made it, like, much easier to figure out, like, that this kid is the son of the other character in the story that he hates. And then, as you see him want to, like, hurt this person who is his father, then, like... It's bad. Because, like, you can see it coming, he doesn't get it, but you get it, and it's this feeling of, like, I cannot stop this, like, Greek tragedy from happening between the father and son, versus, like, surprise, that's his dad. Which is fine, but, like, just didn't have the same emotional weight. Because it kind of, like... we'll get to this with endings, but it's like, when you punch somebody in the stomach, you want to, like, wait a second to, like, watch that unfold before you run away. Like, if you punch someone and run away, you don't know if the punch hurt them. If you punch someone and stand there and watch them go ulp, then you know it landed. And then you run away.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Before they can get you. And that's kind of what you want your story to do. But sometimes the surprise...

[DongWon] This is not tactical advice.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] When you punch someone, you should just run away. Don't wait.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] In real life, don't do that.

[DongWon] Yeah. In real life, don't do that. Just to be clear.

[Erin] Comfortable. But...

[DongWon] Unless you got to. But, yeah.

[Erin] But, like... You punch people, you want to like... You're spending all this time, like, gearing up for the punch...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That you're not even going to watch happen. And I think that can be... It feels like... It can never hold the force that you want it to. Because, like, everything cannot come down to this one surprise.


[Mary Robinette] And a lot of times, giving someone an answer at the beginning and they are like, oh, how is that going to happen? The opening line of The Calculating Stars is do you remember where you were when the meteor hit?

[DongWon] Ooh, that's good.

[Mary Robinette] And then what is that first chapter? The meteor hitting.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So you have a piece of information that the protagonist does not have while she's experiencing that. And so you can... You understand contextually what is happening as she is piecing it together, and it's one of the ways that I built trust...

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] With the readers for the rest of the story. It's like, yeah, I'm going to give you every piece, you're going to get to be a little bit smarter than her, sometimes. And those are things you can do. The other thing that I think you can do to build reader trust is control your tone. Because this is another place that... A failure mode that I'll see that someone will have is a total opening that's like... Like, really in media res action-packed thing, and then the rest of the story is this contemplative thing. That they've been told that they have to have something that's very hook-y...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And interpreted hook-y to mean action...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And fast. Or having a very slow opening that then is for a story that's super fast paced. So I think sometimes that's a place that you can play with.


[Erin] Yeah. I was thinking about those action openings. Because I do like them, and I think... I tried to figure out what makes them work. And a lot of times, it's... I think we can also hook into things that are common human experiences. A great way to kind of figure out... Like, if you have somebody who's nervous about giving a speech in public, that is something that a lot of people can relate to. It makes the character... Oh, that's a thing I got, and then, like, as they're on the way to give the speech, the spaceship explodes. But, like, while they're running through, they're like, oh, I'm sad the spaceship exploded, but I'm glad I don't have to give that speech. I'm like, I get that. That feels very... It feels really real to me, even though I don't know the character much yet. So, I find a lot of times action pieces work really well for me when there's something in them where the character has one driver...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That is something that I understand as a driver that doesn't require me to understand the world. It's something that is very personal instead of like it is part of the World building.

[DongWon. Yeah. Giving a really simple relatable goal can be a way to carry somebody through an outlandish experience. But as part of why these action openings almost never work... They're really, really hard to do, actually. Because I don't care about this character yet, so I don't really care if they live or die or get hurt. I need to care about some aspect of it. I'm thinking of like the Harley Quinn movie where she has her breakfast sandwich. And the thing that matters is preserving this breakfast sandwich. And so... I mean, that's like a comedy beat way to do it, but giving a really small scale achievable goal to care about let you feel... Understand the character in a deep way, because the character cares about something, and then I can see how is she responding, how does she act? I learn who she is by her working through this scene of trying to save the sandwich, and failing.

[Mary Robinette] I think these are all really great ways to get people to trust you at the beginning. And, to continue building our reader trust with you, I think it is time for us to move to a little bit of homework.


[Mary Robinette] So, what I want you to do is I want you to review the first chapter of your work in progress. Make a list of all the story promises you've made. Keep this list somewhere you can easily refer back to as you progress through the story. So that you can make sure that you're staying on track. And if there's a promise that you set up, then maybe you should think about how you're going to fulfill it. But... Start with the list.


[Mary Robinette] And now, you're out of excuses. Now go write.


 
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Writing Excuses 21.07: Deep Dive -- "With Her Serpent Locks" 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-07-deep-dive-with-her-serpent-locks


Key Points: Birthdays are Leveling Up days! This story has teeth. Subtly diabolical. Use mythology to ground the story. Mix in science fiction technology. Barriers to writing? Angry snakes. When you have a big emotion, lean into it. Give it to a character and then help them pivot away from it. Intentions. Delaying information. Internalizing. What the hell?


[Season 21, Episode 07]


[unknown] Every Lenovo is built to let. Them. Go. Let them work and rework. Let them animate. A dinosaur. No, a toaster. No, a hamster in a jetpack. Finally. Let them make it. This back to school season, join Lenovo's online education store for free at lenovo.com, where students unlock exclusive pricing, 10 times Lenovo reward points, and access to a thriving creator community. Lenovo.com. Let creatives create.. [singing Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 07]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Deep dive -- "With Her Serpent Locks"

[Marshall] Tools, not rules.

[Erin] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Marshall] I'm Marshall.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Mary Robinette] And we are very happy that Marshall has joined us. He's usually on the other side of the microphone, being our engineer. But... Today is my birthday.

[Chuckles. Happy birthday. Yay.]

[Mary Robinette] So I often think about this as leveling up day. I'm now at 5th... Level 57 human.

[I love that]

[Mary Robinette] It makes me feel powerful...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] In a way that I'm 57 years old does not. Because then I can think about the new gear that I get and the tools that I get. And for my birthday, one of the things that I often do is I do what I call a party favor. Which is that I host one of my stories, but then I also talk about some aspect of it. Sometimes I show you a first draft. And in this case, we're going to talk about the story through the things we've been talking about with beginnings, some of the things we're going to be talking about with beginnings, and I'm also going to talk about some ways in which this story shows me leveling up. So, this is on Uncanny. It's called With Her Serpent Locks. My friends have read this story. And before I tell you where it came from, I would love to just see what your first initial thoughts of it were.

[DongWon] I really loved it. It's really fun, even though it comes from a place of like... There's definitely, like, teeth to this story. Right? Like, these things have a bite. And I really enjoyed seeing that unfold. But it's... I like the way in which the emotions of it is kind of sublimated, like, there's irritation, but it's all filtered through this very, like, I'm going about my day, I'm keeping my cool, I'm just like doing the things that comfort me, and it sort of has all these sensory grounding things so you can feel the simmering rage underneath it that's going to end up where it ends up. So, yeah, I really liked that emotional tenor and it made it a very, like, pleasant story to read. Even though it is coming from a place of like... Fuck this.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] I agree. When I got... Especially when I get to the end, it just felt like subtly diabolical. Like, by the... Like, she's just going about, like DongWon said, going about the day, but, like... There was some planning going on and there was some anger. And then the execution at the end was just... It was very satisfying by the time we got to the end.

[Erin] Yeah. I really was thinking about it in the context of, like, some of what we've been talking about recently of, like, beginnings and openings, so I really... The end is great. But, like, I was thinking about, like, how it works. And one thing I found interesting is, it's based in mythology. Mythology that I'm aware of. Which is something we didn't talk about, which is something you can ground a story in a broader context and, like, even the context that like... Which is not 100% required, but this is a fairly well-known myth, like, the Medusa turning people into stone. And so it was really cool to kind of uncover what was happening on both the personal level for the character who I was not familiar with, but, like where it fits into my broader understanding of the myth, which is a fun way to ground, and also makes me feel clever, which we talked about in previous episodes. Which is the... I'm like, oh, this is that, and it's a little more explicit right after that. So I'm like, I figured it out...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Before it was told to me, which is something really fun that I enjoyed.

[DongWon] Yeah. And even in the way where I was like, oh, wait, I don't really remember this part of the myth. Like, I remember Medusa was, like, one of the Gorgons, but I don't remember who the rest of them were, or what the setup was, or even exactly how she died. I remember the Harry Hausen...

[Mary Robinette] Right. Yeah.

[DongWon] Version of it. But it didn't feel necessary. Right? I got the pieces I needed to get. I remember the vibe of the thing more. And so I think that's the thing where, like, you don't have to worry too much about referentiality, so long as you're not, like, expecting me to remember every subtle detail of a thing. But like, okay, I know what the Medusa is, I know what a Gorgon is.

[Marshall] Yeah. The title, and then getting to that first break, the stone back of a man held on the ground, it's like, oh. I see...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Marshall] What's happening here.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] I was like, okay, that's sick. I like that. But we were talking about grounding the reader a bit, but what I thought was kind of a clue is grounding these gods with this kind of technology, too. Like, how does a god get from... How does a god trying to escape from her family, and then how are they communicating across time and space, and do they have to take a ship over... Like, I just thought that was a really cool touch, like, the wormhole, the relay station. I just thought that was a cool, like, way to kind of like ground gods into... Inside the story.


[DongWon] Yeah. And then, why make it science fiction? Like, what was behind that choice?

[Mary Robinette] Okay. So [garbled] yes. Now we talk [garbled] about evolution of the story. So, I run this thing called a short story cohort, and one of the things we do at the beginning of the cohort is I check in with people on, like, barriers to writing, victories. And one of the people, as a barrier to writing, said she had a lot of stuff going on with her family, and she just felt like her brain was full of angry snakes. And one of the things that I always say is when you're having a big emotion, try to lean into it. Whether it's giving the character that emotion and then helping them pivot away from it, or lean even farther into it. And so that day, for the writing project, I said our writing prompt is angry snakes. And so what I wrote down... I saved this. What I wrote down was angry snakes. And then the next thing I told them to do was to set some intentions. That they should set a couple of things that if they accomplished those, they would feel satisfied by the end of the day. And the lowest bar is possible. So the things I set were start a new story, decide where, who, and what the problem was. That was it. And so I was like decide where? I'm like, backyard on a planet with rings. That was like the sum total of what I wrote down. Who? Medusa's sister. Problem? Zeus wants to visit. Like, that was what I wrote. And then... This is one of those stories where I got lucky. I talk about this, sometimes, when you get lucky and you kind of cough a story out. I got most of this story during that 2-hour block of writing. Not all of it. There were pieces that I was like, oh, have to fix that. But the opening line of the story was not originally the message from Zeus. It was originally the message hung in the air. It was the second line, was where I started.

[Marshall] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] And my very first take was it was actually going to be Medusa. And then I went over and I was like, can we just check on Medusa? Like, what are some things? I remember, again, she has some...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Sisters. She's dead. So who else is around? And that was when I learned that the Gorgons, some of them were immortal and some were not. And also, I was like, there's gotta be a star named after... Like, all of the other things. And indeed, there is... Like, I didn't make up the name of that... I made up the idea that there's a planet that's habitable there. But I'm like, okay, so you've got immortal gods. That means if we go into science fiction, they should still be around. Theoretically. Unless someone has killed them. And that was kind of where I started. But I didn't know the ending when I started. I knew that I wanted a confrontation between the two of them. I knew that she was dealing with grief. I knew that she hated this asshole. Because, I mean, really, Zeus is, like, rotten. And the other thing that I knew as I was going was that I wanted to play with form. Because I tend to do this fairly immersive kind of... I don't tend to be flashy. And so the idea of doing this thing where Euryale is just doing the why, the where, the question words as my transitions was really appealing to me. And trying to do these very condensed scenes that were doing a lot of lift. But actually, not a lot happens in. Also, very appealing to me that it's this correspondence between the two of them. But at the end... By the time I got to the end, that final scene, I knew what was going to happen to Zeus. I knew that she had taken steps. But I had to go back and plant the... I don't know, basil [garbled layer] whatever it is, at the... I had to go back and plant some of that stuff so that it was there. I think she was originally cutting a lemon instead of a pomegranate. I'm like, it's a Greek myth, what are you doing?

[laughter]

[DongWon] Well, and cutting a pomegranate is such a good sensory detail.

[yeah]

[DongWon] It's such an involved task, it takes these different steps, and there's all this technique involved. I don't know. And it's just this beautiful red luscious image.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. One of the other things that I was trying to do to level up is something that I will talk to you about after the break. Because it's about delaying information.

[laughter]


[Mary Robinette] So, before the break, I said that one of the leveling up things that I played with was delaying information. And one of the pieces of information that I was very deliberately delaying was the word Zeus. And also that, yes, this really is a Gorgon and all of the commentary about her hair is not metaphor, it's like I'm... I've got Greek myth mashed with... But that's actually a pretty hard thing to do. It's not something that I would have been able to do when I was a beginning writer. And it's one of the things that I felt like I had more control over. So I wanted... So I am curious about how that played for you, and what you see as the tricks I was using to be able to do that? Or anything else you want to talk about.

[laughter]

[Marshall] Well, you mentioned the hair not being a metaphor. Or not being... You know what I mean? It was something that was actually happening. And I think I started to kind of figure that out when she sat down and one of them was like...

[Mary Robinette] Bit the chair behind her?

[Marshall] Yeah. That was it. Bit the chair behind her, and she just was kind of doing something with it. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. These are actually, like, responding as she's feeling things. And I was like, okay, that's really cool. And then that, when... I was trying to remember the other spot. Oh. She just didn't want any more statues haunting her house. That line. I love that line. Because now I'm imagining all of these people coming there and her just being like, okay, now you're stone.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Marshall] Sorry, bro. And I just thought that was cool. So that connection of the hair and that image, and then Zeus shows up... I just thought that was really well done.

[DongWon] I love the pattern also you set up of the who what when where why. You know what I mean? Just the single word questions which you, like, hang a lantern on, because she's like I'm being deliberately annoying by just saying one word. But then it leads to the who. Right? And so I think it's just like fun to set up a pattern that is going to resolve, in that way. And resolve in the other thing of, like... I was like it's probably Zeus. You know what I mean? I, like, had a sense of, like... But there's plenty of gods in the Greek pantheon that are complete assholes. But there was something about it that I was like, I wonder if it's going to be Zeus? And then it was, which was very satisfying.

[Erin] I think one thing I found very interesting was at the end of the first paragraph after the spoken line, or the hanging in the air message, was about the asshole favorite grandson who got away with rape and murder and incest. Which is interesting, because her reaction to that is very blase, which to me speaks like something is going on beyond what you're expecting. Because like... It's not like she's like, and I will alert the authorities to this, or like... It's just sort of like, oh, this is like a known thing. It's happened. This again. Which is something that is very... I was like, well, what's going on with that guy? Like, that seems messed up. Like...

[Marshall] Why isn't anyone doing anything about this?

[Erin] Yeah. Like, why is nobody doing [garbled] feels like somebody should be handling this...

[Marshall] Tell somebody.

[DongWon] It's... I mean, weirdly, it's very outsized. Right? Because like... I don't think any of us know someone who's that terrible.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] But I do think a lot of us have someone in our family that's a little bit like, ugh, like that person [garbled] like... You don't... It's also like... I'm not clear on how bad of a person they are, but maybe they're not, like, perfect.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? Or just, like, maybe it's just like a little bit. But that exasperation and discomfort with somebody you're connected to in your circle that you can't quite get away from is, I think, a really, really relatable feeling. Right? And so I think setting that up as, like, the grounding emotion is really helpful there.


[Mary Robinette] Awesome. I'm going to point back to a thing that you said when you were talking about setting up the pattern, the who, where, what. That I had to switch... I remember having to switch something, one of the wheres of one of them in order to get the beats to hit right. But the... At the very, very end, I also deliberately, the where, where would you like to be, I also deliberately gave her more words when she was talking to her sister's head.

[Chuckles] [yes]

[Mary Robinette] I also, in terms of... And this is what we... We'll be talking about endings much later in the season. But the last line was originally, considered the best spot for a hero. And then I was like, that's not her relationship with her.

[DongWon] Yeah. Beloved sister feels so much more the core emotion of the story. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Such a tenderness to her, too. And I think you do a good job of showing that early, both in terms of we think of that as somebody doing these nurturing tasks, preparing food, gardening, but also just like her relationship with her like awful little cilia covered...

[Marshall] Yeah.

[DongWon] Pet. It's like so adorable, but also, when I think about it...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I'm like I don't want a million leg making biscuits on me. It felt so bad to think about. But also you made it very sweet and very cute and very tender. Right? Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I love Butterscotch.

[Marshall] Yeah. I agree. That was a... That was an insanely good character moment, too. And, like, although it was a little off-putting, like... She loves this awful little creature...

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] And I love that last line of that section. They liked frolicking in the moss. And I'm like thinking of this thing with all these legs, like, doing something...

[laughter]

[Marshall] Okay, he likes that. That sounds awful, but... Okay...

[DongWon] Listeners, I'm sorry you missed the pantomime.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I'm like, is that a thousand little legs, or is that a marionette moment?

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I'm not sure what's happening over there. Cool.


[Erin] I have a question for you.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] I know we don't have endless amounts of time, but you talked about feeling like you were leveling up, and I'm curious, like, what that felt like to you, and, like, how did you feel that? Like, what specifically did you feel that you were able to do that you weren't before?

[Mary Robinette] So I know that... Like, I've had control over delay of information for a while, but this kind of slow reveal in such a compressed space? That felt like something that... Like, I know I couldn't... I know I couldn't have done that when I started writing. And so I'm not even sure that I would have been... Like, 5 years ago, doing that. I'm not certain. But I felt like this... The feeling that I had really was, oh, I know how to do this. And one of the things that I... It wasn't actually that I know how to do this. Oh, I've internalized this. That was the thing. When I've done this before, it has been a very, very conscious thing. Like, I've had to think about it and I've had to tweak and adjust it. And this time it was, I've internalized how to handle it. And that's, I think, part of why I described this story as like I just coughed and the story happened. That I was chasing the feelings and the emotions that I had in that moment. It's very short. For people who have not read it, it's only 1,700 words. So it was something that I could write... Mostly write in one sitting. Which meant that I was kind of in the same headspace for the entire time. So it really did feel like that thing I always talk about with puppetry, where, like, I've internalized it, the figure's just moving. And often, when I was performing, I would remember the show from the point of view of the character. Even though that's not... Like, my body is not in that memory, even though I know that I was there. But I had internalized what I was supposed to be doing so much that I was just acting within the moment. And that was very much that feeling with this. It's like I've internalized this, I'm just acting, I'm just feeling the moment. Which was a really good feeling.


[DongWon] There's a real ease to this story that comes through. Right?

[Erin] Yeah.

[DongWon] It doesn't feel effortful or forced in any way. Not that your fiction normally does, but, like, there's a breeziness to it that I think makes it so appealing and easy to read.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. It was... Like, I think that that can happen with my other stuff, but often it's something that I had to really work for. And, like, polish off the rough edges.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And this time it was like, no, I know exactly what I'm doing with this one. Which was a nice feeling.

[Erin] Awesome.

[Marshall] And I know we're not talking about revision right now, but, like, that's something good, I think, for, like, in my writing community, where a lot of new writers or aspiring writers or whatever you want to call it are trying to figure out, is this ready? You know what I mean? And so I guess I like hearing the fact that you were able to do this, but this isn't something that happens all the time. But it's also something that will happen, the more you do it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Marshall. I don't know if there's a question there, but like... Do you see what I'm saying?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. No, I think it absolutely is a thing to know. And that... Because you're right. It is so frustrating when you are working for it, and I see that also with a lot of people who've taken a writing Workshop. That they come out of it, and everything is so conscious that writing feels incredibly hard, because you're trying to do everything, trying to use all of these new tools.

[DongWon] Right. 

[Mary Robinette] And so knowing that, oh, yeah, once you do that work, there is this payoff on the other end.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It just may take... May take years before you get there.

[DongWon] It's all practice.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Like I started... I sold my first book, I think, in 2005. I think that's right.

[DongWon] [garbled] a couple years ago.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm about 20 years into doing this as a career... Up to... Whoof.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I have not actually said that out loud before.

[laughter]


[Mary Robinette] One of the other things that I was going to say is that when I was writing this, we also took a couple of breaks. So, even though it's a 2-hour span that I wrote this in, I know that I took a couple of breaks during that, in which I walked around. And the break's only 2 minutes long. Which is long enough to go get a cup of water, long enough for things to kind of kick over in my head, and then come back. So, like, one of the things that I've got in here is, in the original, is a prompt that I used when we came back, which is, after, she took a face mask out of another drawer and hooked it around her ears. And I've got... I preserved the prompt which was, what the hell? And originally, like in my... And again, like, this is a 2-hour span, I know that I was planning on... Like, I was thinking about how many iterations, how much back and forth... And then I was like, what the hell? Have him just show up.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, he just shows up.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And it's just like, what the hell.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, forget all of this. And that was also one of those things that, again, the internalization ... Internalizing of, oh, sometimes you can actually just make a decision to stop a try-fail cycle and just move to the next beat.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, you don't have to, like, build... Sometimes you can just be like what the hell...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] This is happening there? And just move.

[DongWon] Yeah. I love that.

[Mary Robinette] Okay. Any other questions before I give them their homework?


[Mary Robinette] Well, first of all, thank you all so much for coming to celebrate my birthday.

[Erin] Happy birthday again. Thank you for sharing it with us. Yeah. I love getting presents on somebody else's birthday.


[Mary Robinette] So, for your homework. This story started with a description of emotion. Angry snakes. I want you to take a strong emotion that you've experienced recently, and describe it as a metaphor. Then, I want you to use that metaphor as your writing prompt.


[Marshall] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
mbarker: (Fireworks Delight)
[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.06: Begin and the Beginning


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-06-begin-and-the-beginning


Key Points: Begin at the beginning. Ground the reader. Set expectations for the ride. Pace, tone. Action-driven openings or voice-driven openings. How will you pull the reader through the story (aka hook or frame). Interesting, unique details. DIY slushpiles. Going into a house for a party. Start at the interesting. Where are we, who should we care about, and what's happening? Taste and an offering. A microcosm of the greater story. Make a promise and keep it, or ask a question and answer it. Welcome snacks! You don't need to get it right at first! Party planning with time travel. 


[Season 21, Episode 06]


[unknown] Every Lenovo is built to let. Them. Go. Let them work and rework. Let them animate. A dinosaur. No, a toaster. No, a hamster in a jetpack. Finally. Let them make it. This back to school season, join Lenovo's online education store for free at lenovo.com, where students unlock exclusive pricing, 10 times Lenovo reward points, and access to a thriving creator community. Lenovo.com. Let creatives create.. [singing Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 06]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Begin at the beginning.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'mErin.


[DongWon] And, this week we're going to talk about beginnings. This is one of my very favorite topics... I think I've said that like three episodes in a row.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] But I do love talking about beginnings. I overindex on them. I think in part it's because of my job as an agent, when I'm looking at queries and I'm looking at samples, I'm always looking at beginnings of stories and trying to make a judgment call on them. So, I have read thousands upon thousands of beginnings of books and had to make judgment calls about is this working or not. Right? And I think they're really, really important. I think readers are also reading beginnings of stories and making a decision of do I buy this book, do I keep reading this book? Right? And so many times that's where you lose somebody. Right? Because... Now sometimes for good reasons, which is, oh, this book isn't for me, I'm not the reader for this, I thought it was going to be something else and it's not. The cover... I made an assumption from the cover that isn't true. Right? But a lot of times, it's people who would enjoy the rest of your book, but bounced off of it because it didn't quite do what it... The beginning needs to be doing. It's a very difficult section because your reader's coming in cold, they know nothing about what's happening, they don't know your characters, your stakes, your world, and you need to communicate an enormous amount of information to them very quickly without losing them because of a lack of action or too complex prose or whatever it is.

[Mary Robinette] So this episode is kind of going to give you an overview. And then we're going to have some follow-up episodes where we're going to kind of dive into a lot of these things. But generally, when I'm thinking about beginnings, I think about grounding the reader. I think about setting their expectations for the kind of ride they're going to be on. I think about the pace and the tone of the overall thing. So, sometimes, I'm going to do something that's called an action driven opening, and sometimes I'm going to do something that's called a voice driven opening. And I think about sort of what questions I want to set up that are going to... Like, how am I going to pull the reader through the story? Sometimes we call this a hook, sometimes we call this a frame. There's a bunch of different words for it. But, like, what is it that makes the reader say, do I care about this?


[Erin] I recently did an event in which we read the beginnings of people's works. And so what happened is there was a panel and we read the first few pages. I was one of the readers. We actually couldn't see the panel. And when three of them raised their hands, saying I would stop reading here, we stopped. And so it was really an interesting way... Like, and we read them completely, like, no prep at all.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And it was an interesting way to see what was catching people's attention. And to me, it was, like, something that felt unique, something that people hadn't necessarily heard of before, with interesting details. I found that pieces that had really interesting details, especially if it was like one key detail that felt unique and felt like something that you could really understand, grabbed people's interest and kept them going through the whole beginning. Whereas other ones did not have that same sort of grab.

[Mary Robinette] I've been the reader for this kind of event. And I've also learned that there's a way you can set up this experience at home with friends, which is you can create kind of a slush pile experience. We do something with my short story cohort where we do... The... We get... We take the first 13 lines, which is the first page in standard manuscript format, and we chunk all of the first 13 lines that we have written in a period of time into a single document. And then we go through and read it as if we're reading through a slush pile. And mark which ones kept us and why. We don't mark which ones we hate... We don't do any of that. It's just a I love this, I love that. And one of the things that will happen for the writer is that often everyone will gravitate towards one, and the writer is like that's really fascinating because I know that this other one that no one has picked is way more interesting deeper into the story.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so then they can look at it and compare, like, what am I doing in this one that everyone is gravitating towards? And so that's the thing that you can do with your writing friends. You can create your own slush pile. You can even create a slush pile by just grabbing the first 13 lines out of existing material that's not even yours to create this experience of what is it that consistently catches me? And it's... You'll find that it is different with each of them, but that a lot of it is that there is something in it that makes you... And this is so amorphous... But there is something in it that makes you lean in.


[DongWon] Yeah. I think that thing is control. The thing I think about the most when I'm looking at the opening pages of a book is: is the author in control of this story? Are they in control of their prose? And I think about this in terms of... We've turned to the metaphor a few times this season, but Amal el Mohtar's idea of a book as an act of hospitality. Right? And I think in terms of when you walk into someone's house, you can feel if this was a space designed with intention. If it's clean and orderly and set up for a good experience for you. Right? When you walk into someone's house and it's chaotic, there's stuff all over the place, there's no clear place for you to sit, there's no... If you don't know how to get water or you don't know how to be comfortable here, it puts you in a more... It puts you on your back foot. Right? And so when you walk into a story, you want to feel that this is a roller coaster ride, and that roller coaster is well built and I'm not going to fall off of it. Right? And so I think finding ways to communicate that in the opening pages of you're in good hands, I got you, is incredibly important. And I think a lot of people think it's important to start with action, you have to start in media res, it has to be thrilling and exciting. But sometimes, for me, the strongest openings are ones that are very, very quiet. The ones that are just describing something for a long time, but they're doing it in a way that is demonstrating in micro you're going to like my prose, I have control over the pacing, I'm going to build tension, and you're going to be interested in it even though nothing is happening yet.


[Erin] Yeah. It is kind of like going into a house, like, for a party...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, you can come in the middle of a party and it... Definitely things will be going on, it'll be interesting, but if you don't know anyone there, you can sometimes feel like very like, I don't understand, I just want to stand in the corner of the wall, I don't know why this person is dancing with that person, or what's happening. But if you come to a house before the party has begun, you get a chance to, like, take in, like, oh, this is the place, here's the person, here's the host, now I have, like, a little bit of a sense...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Of it. And I think that's why details, to me, like, stuck out as one of the things that worked really well in the openings that I was reading. Because, like in a house, if you have too many knick knacks, like, it's just like... It's hard to focus. Same way, if you have, like, too many details... If you're trying to describe a scene, and it's like this amazing detail, that amazing detail... It's like, wow, I can't focus. But if you're controlled and you're like, let me take your eye to this one really important thing that, like, resonates with the story and is really going to catch your attention, like having that one really great art wall in your house, that is something that says I understand how to move you through this space, move you through this story, and give you something that's going to be worth seeing. worth reading.

[DongWon] Because, even if you show up in the middle of a party, if there's a clear idea, oh, snacks are here, drink station is here, music is there, and that's clearly legible. Or the host comes over and says, hey, let me take you around, then you can have a great time in the middle of the party. You can show up in media res if you're being well taken care of.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. By the same token, if you arrive too early, there's that incredibly awkward thing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Where you just stand around while the host is getting things ready. That's when... Those are the books that you read where the... They've just started it too soon.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It's like they are still doing the [grope] which often you need to do while you are writing, and there is nothing wrong with doing that in draft. Like, do not think that your first draft has to have the perfect opening, like, the first time around. Very few of mine do, I have to tell you that.

[laughter]

[DongWon] It's funny, I almost suggested changing the title of the episode, but my proposal would have made no sense, which is the beginning is a terrible place to start.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Because sometimes... I run this... This is a very, very common mistake is that the writer is starting the story for where the character's story starts. Which is, like, waking up, going to school, before the inciting incident happened. So a lot of times, what I'll say is, hey, jump forward, start where something interesting is happening... Don't start at the beginning, start at the interesting. But the challenge of that is exactly what we're talking about, of you don't have any context and it's all pretty chaotic. And I think there's like a lot of techniques to help ease the reader in. Like we've talked about high level, of like how you want the reader to feel, and when we come back from the break, I want to start talking about some of the techniques that we use to make sure that that feels good to them.


[DongWon] Okay. DongWon here. I wanted to remind you that in September, our last annual cruise will set sail for Alaska. And on February 15th, ticket prices will increase. The hosts are teaching classes on the business of publishing, world building, conversational storytelling, and game writing. You can sign up and learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats. Hope to see you there.


[DongWon] Okay. Welcome back. In the first half of this, we've been talking about how do you make the reader feel comfortable in the story, How do you communicate authority and control as they're reading the opening lines of your work. Let's start talking about the techniques that are useful here. How do you play with getting enough information into those opening pages that they accomplish all the goals that you set out, Mary Robinette, and the reader feels well grounded in the story and has a sense of the shape of what's to come?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And we will get into this, like, a lot more when we get to the grounding...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] The reader episode. But... High level, I think about... That the reader wants to know kind of where they are, and where can include a when. They want to know what they're supposed to care about, whether that's a person or an idea. And they want to know sort of what is happening. Which can sometimes, in an action-driven story, be like literally what is the character doing? But in a voice driven opening, that can... Like Hitchhiker's Guide is an example of this. They want to know, like, what is the deal with the watches? And the digital watches and why they're a pretty neat idea? Going back to the... I jotted something down while Erin was talking before the break about arriving at a party and how you know that someone is in control. Because I'm like, yeah, I want a sense of control, that the author is in control, but, like, what is that? And I think the things that we're looking at are intention, the order, that it isn't just a chaotic thing. Sometimes, if you have everything everywhere all at once, but that doesn't start chaotically. Chaos comes in that. Taste, a sense of the author's taste. And then a good host comes with an offering.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so I think if you kind of think about those things... It's like, what is your intention with this opening? What order are you going to present the information in so that they build a picture in their head? What is the tone, the taste that you're trying to demonstrate? And what is the thing that you're offering that entices them to come further in?


[DongWon] The thing I think about a lot is a really useful thing to do is to create a microcosm of the greater story. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] You build a tiny little micro taster of... The Douglas Adams thing that you're talking about, in terms of that opening, the reason it works is it's him being like, hey, you like this? Get ready for a lot more of it. Right? And sometimes just giving a little taste sample of what's going to come is the most useful thing you can do. My favorite opening of all time is The Haunting of Hill House. And it starts with this, like, abstract idea, goes into a long description of a house, just very normal description of a house, and then ends on an incredibly creepy line. Right? And so what that is, is an absolute outline of the book we're about to read. Of kind of abstract, gets into talking about a house for a long time, and then gets really weird. Right? And so I think sometimes setting the reader up and putting them through the paces of your story in a filtered way, in a microcosm way, is a great way to be like do you like this? You're going to like this book.


[Erin] I also think like... I agree with that. I also think that making a promise and then keeping it...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Really quickly is a great way to show that you understand what's going on, or asking a question and then answering it.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because, like, early on, the reader's like, I don't know if I can trust you to keep your promises or answer the questions. And as the story goes on, you can actually space out a promise from it being fulfilled or a question from it being answered because you've already established that you're doing that. It's like you're showing that, like, I said this was what was going to be, and this is what it's going to be.

[DongWon] I have a friend who calls that welcome snacks. Like when somebody comes to a party, they're immediately like, here's a little thing, here's just a bite you can have. Here's, like a little, like... I don't know, like a sweet popcorn dish or like a chip and a dip. You know what I mean? Just like immediately you walk in, you just get a little mouthful of something. You're like, mmm, that was nice. Okay, let's go.

[Erin] And part of what that does in a party setting... We're also party planners here...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Is that it says, I thought of you.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] When someone has a snack for you when you enter, they say, like, I actually before you arrived thought of something that would make you more comfortable and happy in this moment. I made a promise, I'm going to be your host, and I have immediately fulfilled it by doing something that I wouldn't do if this wasn't a party.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so that is the quick thing that you can put in the story.


[Mary Robinette] Which reminds me of a thing I was talking with a friend who had just gone over to someone's home and it was the first time this person had hosted anyone. And the friend arrived and she's there for an awkward amount of time, and then the person is like, oh, I probably should have had snacks. I should have had snacks. Do we have snacks? I might have snacks. And that is often my first... My experience of reading early career manuscripts.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Where you arrive and there's like nothing really happening, and then at some point, the author is like, oh, something's supposed to happen. And then there's like an explosion out of nowhere, and you don't understand...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Why it's happening or anything. Like, What. Is. Going. On? And you feel a little unsafe and uncomfortable.

[DongWon] One thing I want to point out is I think you can be forgiving of your friend, when it's your friend.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] When that happens. When you go over to your buddy's house, he's like, oh, man, Chuck is always like this. You know what I mean?

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] He doesn't know how to plan a party. But when you are asking someone to pay $20 and give up time away from their family, away from TV and video games and going to the gym or whatever it is, then that is saying come to my professional [garbled]

[Mary Robinette] You don't want the Fire Festival of books.

[DongWon] Exactly. Exactly.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] You don't want to be serving someone white bread with a slice of ham on it, and being like, welcome to my luxury festival. Right? You need to be giving them...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Sorry.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Sorry. We are just losing it. [garbled] But y'all wanted to be part festival, y'all want to be at the White Lotus. Right? You want to be, like, here's the beautiful experience, also someone's getting murdered.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] But I think thinking about... I mean, we really went all around this hospitality metaphor, but I think it's really, really, really useful in thinking about opening of how do you take care of readers as they're coming into your story?


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And there's this thing that I want to say about this is that from a writing perspective, from a craft perspective, you 100% don't need to get this right on the first try. And...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] You almost certainly won't. Every now and then you'll get lucky. Like, I've had times where I'm lucky and the opening is, like, lasts through the whole thing. More often than not, I will get into the middle of the book, and then reach the end of the book and realize, oh, this is what that book is actually about, and have to go back and write a new first chapter. Or with a short story, have to reframe the first couple of... Sometimes, the first couple of pages, sometimes it's just a paragraph. Sometimes I have to pull a whole scene at the beginning of it. But it is... It changes. In fact, coming up in... Later, in two episodes, two episodes from now, we're going to be looking at one of my stories, With Her Serpent Locks, and that opening line is not the opening line that I started with. It's an opening line that did not happen until my editor read it, and said, we need this here. And I was like... And I resisted it really... It was like very... Very annoyed. But...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Very correct.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So a lot of... So when you're writing from a craft perspective, think about this as party planning with time travel.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] You get to plan the party, and then you get to have the party, and then you get to time travel back and say, okay, these are the snacks we actually need, these are the things that we... This is who's coming, it turns out this allergy exists and we need to take that snack away and make sure that the AC is running because someone is coming with a fire thing that they're going to do outside...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And then everyone's going to come back inside and be really hot. So, like, you can do all of that, and then throw the party again.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And everyone is comfortable... Same people coming, but they just have a different experience because of the way you framed it at the beginning.


[Erin] And I think you can also learn that you wrote a beginning to the story that you're not actually trying to write.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] So, you could be like, oh, I'm going to... In The party planning analogy... I'm going to throw a rager. A rager to end all ragers. with a string quartet, and wine, and cheese. And it's like, is that a rager? Like, if what you want in your party is, like, I actually want people to have really quiet, intimate conversations with each other the entire party. Like, even though in your head, you may want to think, I'm the kind of person who throws epic frat rager... No. You're actually interested in this, like, gentle, like, cocktail party. And that's okay.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because I think sometimes we get ideas in our head of what we want to be as writers and we start writing a beginning using that. And then in the middle, we realize this is not the story that I really want to tell. And it's okay to abandon that and leave that beginning for some other time or some other version of you.

[Mary Robinette] And with that idea, it's also important to note that sometimes we got ideas from seeing other people's parties.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But those parties don't necessarily fit into our house, into our taste or into our budget. Like, when I see people go from novels to short stories, they're trying to write an opening with a novel budget which is a lot more words and they just don't have that big of a budget, and their apartment is also a studio apartment,...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] It's not a mansion.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So you have to make different choices.


[DongWon] And I think another reason to not write your beginning first, or not worry about your beginning being exactly right when you start, is that openings of novels are heightened. Right? They're written in a slightly different way than the rest of the book, because your language is going to be a little bit more dense, you're going to be doing more than you can ease out of this, like, really high octane, High information density. And like often in your opening lines, you're going to be a little more showy then you will be later in the book in terms of prose style. Because you're trying to like really hit people with, like, here's a bang opening line. Here's like... I can write. You know what I mean? Is one thing you're trying to communicate in that early section. And so trying to sustain that over the course of the novel is... Would be a huge mistake, because it would be exhausting for your reader and for you. So I think finding a way to, like, have... To come back and be like, okay, how do I craft something that feels heightened and that's like a special entry to the story, but doesn't have to be sustained throughout? And that kind of gives you the space to do that little microcosm thing that we were talking about.

[Mary Robinette] And I think that's going to bring us to our homework.


[Mary Robinette] And for the homework, what I'd like to ask you to do is to make an artificial slush pile. This is a great exercise that you can do. We're going to be talking about tools, and we're going to give you an opportunity for the rest of this beginning to play with those tools in the homework. But for right now, just take a look, just analyze existing tools and see what works for you and what makes you lean in, what makes you feel welcome at the party.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.


 
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[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.05: The Same, But Different 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-05-the-same-but-different


Key Points: How do you write something that feels original, but still meets readers' expectations? Genre or sequel? Sequels, structure or cast? Change one. Don't change too many things, one difference can be enough. Grounding questions may carry over. Window dressing genre or elemental genre? Keep the window dressing the same, but play with the elemental genre elements. Aesthetic driven or structure driven genres? What are the questions underlying your stories? Writing as hospitality. How do you avoid repeating your tropes? Do it consciously. Honor the fact that you are not the same person. Ask what if about your writing! 


[Season 21, Episode 05]


[Mary Robinette] This episode...


[unknown] Kimi no game system... [advertisement in Japanese] [Singing Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] ... of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 05]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] The same, but different.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[DongWon] And this week we're going to talk about one of... A topic that I'm deeply fascinated by, and, I think, one of the trickier things to figure out when you're talking about genre writing, when you're talking about series writing in particular. But I think it's really true of the entire publishing process. Right? And that is how do you write something that feels original, but still accomplishes meeting the reader's expectations? And that can be down to meeting the same genre expectations, that can be down to writing a sequel, that feels in conversation with the original but is its own thing and is unique. Right? I mean, again, we are creatures of pattern recognition. Right? We want certain beats, we want a certain feeling from our romance or fantasy or science fiction or mystery or thrillers. Right? Like, there's this idea of fiction being trope-y or formulaic. But those tropes and formulas are the building blocks of genre storytelling. So, how do you look at differentiating the story that you're writing from the things that came before it?

[Mary Robinette] So, I think that there's two ways to think about this. One is with sequels and one is with genre. I'm going to start with sequels first.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, when I wrote Shades of Milk and Honey, it's basically Jane Austen with magic, it is more or less a straight up Regency romance. In romance, the structure is that you write the first book, and there's a very specific romantic structure. And then when you write the second book, the structure is the same, but the difference comes from a different cast. So it's the sister of the heroine and the boyfriend's BFF. Now follow form. I didn't want to do that. So what I did for my same but different was I changed my structure, but I kept my cast. And what I see when I see people moving into sequels is that a lot of times they are keeping the same ca... The sequels that feel flat is that a lot of times it's the same cast and they are facing the same kind of problem. So it's the same and the same. And they  aren't bringing anything new to it. So I think one of the things that you can think about when you are moving into a sequel is keeping the same as this is the heart and the core of this story. Those are the things that you keep the same. Because I also see that the other problem which is that someone moves into a sequel and  then go the different and the different.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] And it's so far away from the original that people... People go back to that sequel because they want a specific thing. And so if you remove that piece of the same, and you then... Then there's no reason for them to go back to it. So I think looking at kind of what is your intention, keep those things the same. And then, what are the places you want to kind of surprise or bring something new?


[Erin] I was thinking about, because I haven't written novel sequels, like, where I've encountered this. And I kept thinking about my time when I was writing for Zombies Run. It's interesting, because it's the same cast of people, and it's the same action. There are zombies and you are running from them. Every single time.

[DongWon] You've got one verb.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] It is a game with one action. Run. And so, something that we would find is early on the instinct would be to throw a lot of new things, to try to make each thing different. Like, there's more zombies, and they're on fire. And you're in space. No, not really. But, like, and they're all happening. And it turns out that a lot of times one difference makes a huge difference because people are like, oh, I understood how they got through everything, like, they really figured out how to run from the zombies. But now the zombies are on fire. Which is bad. And so, like, this one difference accelerates the tension, in part because you're like, they can't repeat what has already happened, so how are they going to get out of this situation this time? And so, you don't have to change everything, and, like, throw all the toys into the bin, you can just have this one thing that they can focus on, and that actually adds a lot.

[DongWon] Yeah, I mean, going to sort of MICE quotient, right, you have all these different components that make up a story, from milieu to the characters. And I think choosing one or two of these, I mean, you can do a thing where you're keeping most of these the same, and if you're doing, like, romance, you're really keeping a lot of things very similar. Or if you're doing, like, procedural mystery, then a lot of it is staying using the very popular phrase these days, standalone mysteries with series potential, you're going to want to be able to carry things through. But if you wrote the first book as a true standalone, now it's like, okay, how do I do book two? Right? And so figuring out what you want to carry over from book one, whether that is purely the setting, have new characters or pick up side characters, or you have the same cast and you're putting them in a different situation. I think those are the things that you need to start thinking about, of, like, wait, what are the things that I want to be fixed points as I'm looking forward to telling this new story?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Like with the Lady Astronaut books, I've got Elma has anxiety, and so... But we go into space and all of that. And so in book one, we don't fix her anxiety, but she has come to a place where she accepts the choices that she's making and... But in the second book, the thing that I change isn't, oh, now she has a new problem. It's, she still has anxiety, but it's a different trigger this time. Which is often the way that things happen in real life. You're like, ah, now I have a handle on this. Oh, wait, circumstances are different. So a lot of times, just changing the context, whether it's setting your zombies on fire or sending someone to Mars, is enough to shake things for the character.

[Erin] And if you think about... Like, a lot of science fiction that, like, at least I grew up on Star Trek, it's very procedural. Like, it is...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] The same but different, like, episode after episode after after episode in the series, where it is the same cast and theoretically the same... Like, they're still part of the Federation, they're still trying to, like, seek out new worlds, but it's what's on this world? What does this alien do that we didn't expect? How are our expectations of how we can  handle this shifted? And I think we, like, see a lot of that and have experienced a lot of that as watchers, as people who are engaged in science fiction. But then sometimes when it's written, it like freaks people out. It's like, nah, you cannot have... If people really love your characters, like, fanfiction will tell you, if people love your characters, they will watch them open an alternate universe coffee shop together...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Because they just really want to  be in a place with these people.


[DongWon] Well, and sometimes it's important to realize that you can wander pretty far afield.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? I mean, I'm thinking about two classic examples of 80's science fiction movies, which is Terminator and Terminator 2. Right? Which is just a complete inversion of the first story. Right? They're the same structure, in a lot of ways. Same beats in a lot of ways. But instead of the Terminator being the villain in one, now he's the hero in two. Right? Instead of Linda Hamilton's character being the victim in the first movie, she becomes this incredible badass action hero in two. So it's like, oh, what if we just flipped everything on its head, but told the same story, How does that change? Right? Which makes it a really fun, easy to grasp thought experiment as you're looking at it and being like, oh, I get what this is right away. Also, this feels like a Terminator movie, has the same tone, and it has the same body. And another example is the jump from Alien to Aliens, which is a complete genre shift. It goes from horror science fiction to action science fiction. Right? The second movie, wildly different tone, wildly different vibe, same aesthetics though. Right? It's using the same visual elements and it's still quite scary. There are still, like, horror elements to it. But the difference between there is one alien and it is picking us off one by one to oh, hey, God, there are thousands of them and... But we have a whole military unit with us. Completely different tone, but, again, same but different.


[Mary Robinette] I think... Talking about the tone also brings up a thing that you can do when you're looking at a sequel, and I'm thinking of the Gideon the 9th and...

[DongWon] Harrow...

[Mary Robinette] Harrow. That there's a big tone shift when you go from one book to the other. Because we shift POV characters...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because of a bunch of other things. But there are also so many grounding questions that are carried over...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] From the first book that you are still engaged with it, even though there's a lot of difference...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] In that one. But the big kind of question of sort of who am I and how do I define myself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And pushing against systems that want to keep me in a specific place, like, that's very consistent from book to book.

[DongWon] Or, again, A Memory Called Empire jumping to A Desolation Called Peace. Right? We read A Memory Called  Empire a little while ago on this podcast, but the second book takes the same characters or many of the same characters, the ones who make it through the first book, and then they put them on the bridge of a starship trying to figure out how to communicate with some very different aliens. It's a really different problem and setting. I mean, one... In the first one, we are in an epic fantasy succession sort of story, and then in the second one, we're in this Star Trek how to meet the aliens story. But, because of the same characters and the tone and the questions are the same, they are still questions about connection and communication and language in a way that the first one is, it feels of a piece, even though they are radically different from each other. Okay. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to talk about some... Zooming out a little bit in sort of a more macro scale, How do I keep this feeling the same, while not just doing a direct sequel.


[DongWon] Okay. DongWon here. I wanted to remind you that in September, our last annual cruise will set sail from Alaska. And on February 15th, ticket prices will increase. The hosts are teaching classes on the business of publishing, world building, conversational storytelling, and game writing. You can sign up and learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats. Hope to see you there.


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[DongWon] Okay. Welcome back. We're going to keep talking about the same but  slightly different now.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Do we get to talk about genre now?

[DongWon] We get to talk about genre now.

[Mary Robinette] [garbled]

[DongWon] I want to talk about genre now, but I also want to talk about your career planning. How to still feel like you as a writer. But let's talk about genre first. So, in terms of genre, I think a lot... Many, many years ago, Writing Excuses, before I joined the podcast, did a season that I think about all the time, that I find so useful, which is the idea of elemental genres. You sort of have your window dressing genre, which is sort of are there ray guns and spaceships or are there dragons and swords in this? And then you have your elemental genres, which is is this fundamentally a mystery? Is this fundamentally romance? Is this a story about wonder and discovery? Right? And so when I think about the same but different, I think the things that need to feel the same are the window dressing things, kind of carry through, but then the things that you get to play with more are the elemental genre things. Right? You can set a mystery inside your cyberpunk setting. But the cyberpunk setting needs to hit certain aesthetic beats and hit certain elements to feel of the same.

[Mary Robinette] One of the things that I talk about a lot and think about is that there's, I think, aesthetically driven genres and structure driven genres. So aesthetic ones are things like science fiction, fantasy, historical, Western, that there's a look and a feel and a vibe. Set dressing.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] Costumes. Ray guns. And then structure driven ones are things like romance, mystery, heist, thriller... That there's certain beats that you have to hit in order to do that. And the nice thing is that you can often get your same but different by layering those things.

[Erin] I'm curious though. That all makes sense to me, but how do you know what readers, or should you care what readers are responding to? Let's say you have a cyberpunk mystery that everyone's like, wow, cyberpunks cool, but I was really into this cyberpunk detective and, like, the actual unraveling of the mystery. And therefore if you make your next book cyberpunk romance, this... People might be like, oh, yeah, that was fine, but, like, I was really hoping for more on the mystery side, less on the cyberpunk side.


[DongWon] Well, I think one thing that's really important is we're talking about aesthetic versus structural genres. I do want to flag, though, that even though it is aesthetic and we're talking about it as set dressing, the aesthetic often has a question embedded in it that's really important. Right? So talking about cyberpunk specifically, it is about a certain set of questions and issues, and I think when cyberpunk doesn't feel like cyberpunk, it is just like hackers and flashy stuff. But there's no question about like what is individual... How do we operate within an oppressively capitalistic society? Right? I think, like, one of the primary elements of cyberpunk is the punk part of it. Right? How do we DIY ourselves under corporate oligarchy? Right? I think that's a really important thing. So I think if you carry through that question from one to the other, it'll feel connected. Right? I mean, this is Blade Runner versus Blade Runner 2049. are interested in really different or have incredibly different story structures. One is sort of like... The first one  being more of a detective mystery and the second one being more of this, like, more sprawling story about tevolution and inheritance. Right? But they both feel like Blade Runner stories because, not just the aesthetics carry through, the question carries through of what makes a person a person.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I think that that is absolutely true. And also, I think that in... You're thinking about the question, but then there's also the thing you're asking is that that may be the thing that the creator is interested in is this question. But the readers may come for something else. And so for me, this goes to a metaphor that I've talked about before, which is the idea of decorating the house. Amal el Mohtar talks about writing is an act of hospitality. So I think that when you're thinking about this same but different, which pieces do you keep, you're thinking about when you move from one house to another, there's some things you keep and there's some things you don't keep. but it's ultimately still your house. So when I did Shades of Milk and Honey, and did the next book, which was secretly a military war novel disguised as a Regency  romance, I did lose readers. Because there were readers who wanted... The same that they wanted was the structure. And I lost readers. But that was a ch... And I knew I would. It was a choice I made on purpose because I... As much as I love romance, I didn't want to be trapped in writing Regency romances. So I think that you can do that, but you just have to be conscious of it and decide why you're making the change and who you want to invite into the house. And what house do you want to live in?


[DongWon] Yeah. And I think this goes into sort of the second half of the question I had, which is, as a writer, when you're thinking about your career, when you're planning out what book is next, if you're not writing a series or even necessarily writing in the same genre, how do you make sure your next book still feels like a project from you? Right? What is an Erin Roberts story, and then what also feels like one, when you're thinking about what your next story is? Right? Like, is that something you two think about actively in planning that out?

[Mary Robinette] I think about it with novels.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I do not think about it with short fiction. With short fiction, that is the place where I am deliberately and joyfully playing all over the map.

[Erin] I think... Yes and no. Like, I think it's just like part of the story is a reflection of who you are. And so, when you think about the same but different, we are ourselves are often...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] The same...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And always different. And I think one of the struggles when the world is moving at a pace, we'll say, and things are happening is you're changing a lot...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And you're trying to figure out who you are and what's going on. That also changes your writing. And I think, for me, feeling beholden to a past version of myself feels like trapping myself in a relationship...

[DongWon] 100%.

[Erin] I didn't want to or locking myself in a house and refusing to move.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Even though the neighborhood's on fire. and so I think it is... Even though who knows what the consequences of that may be.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's better to do something that I feel is a reflection of the thing I'm trying to say and maybe I'm the only one who likes it than writing something that I think other people will want, but I'm not happy with and I feel uncomfortable in the space. I'm not being hospitable to myself.

[DongWon] One thing I look at when considering taking on a client is what is their project. Right? Is the way I think about it. And when I say project, I mean not just what is this book, but what is the big question they're tackling. Right? Are they writing about liberty and authority? Are they writing about family inheritance? Right? Are they writing about morality? There's all... Or are they interrogating capitalism? Right? Like... And I say that in a way that sounds very highfalutin, but sometimes, like, I have this question about Chuck Tingle, too. Right? Chuck Tingle is writing about how to be queer in a world, how to find joy in a world, where things are really difficult. And these are big thematic questions told in a way that is often very light-hearted and accessible. But everyone I think is interrogating a question in their fiction in one way or another. Right? Whether they know it or not, and whether they're aware of it or not. And it's not a question I ask them and that I need them to answer, but this is a question for me of can I see it and can I figure out how to support that question. Right? And... So I think to some extent that connectivity is really important from one book to the next book of being able to feel like they're still talking about the same stuff. 


[DongWon] But I've also noticed something, and I'm new to doing creative works on my own. Right? I've worked a long time supporting writers, but I've been doing a thing recently in preparation for an upcoming project where I've iterated on a bunch of games really quickly. Original settings, different groups, different themes. But I keep finding myself tripping over... Like, oh, crap, I did the same thing again. Right? Oh, I put doppelgangers in this story again. I put twins in the story again. Or whatever it is. Right? Like, there's a few repeated tropes I have. How do you spot the things and resist the things that are too same-y, same-y from story to story, and keep it feeling fresh? Or do you not worry about it at all?

[Mary Robinette] I don't worry about it often when I'm drafting. And there's some things like... There's some things I do on purpose. Like, with my books, one of the things that you know is that you're going to get committed family people. Whether it's a couple or friends, that there's a strong relationship that's not threatened. You will usually know that you're going to get some pretty costumes. The thing that  I notice is that I have a... And I think this is a... I have a really strong tendency to injure my characters' hands and arms.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And I suspect that  that is because as a puppeteer, that is the thing I'm most afraid of. And so that's the part of the body that I'm most likely to damage. And so I will catch myself doing that sometimes and pull it back. And other times, I'm just like, no, that's actually the appropriate part of their body to injure...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And we're just going to...

[DongWon] We're just going to do that.

[Mary Robinette] We're just going to do it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, like, it's when I look at it, I think, okay, why do I need to change this, and do I need to change it? Like, the number of times that someone actually is going to binge all of my material back to back and then write a thesis going, ah, she has broken five arms... It's unlikely to happen.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] A lot of times, the patterns that we see in our own work are because we are living with our own work, not because other people see it. And then other people will see patterns that we have no idea are there.

[DongWon] Right.

[Mary Robinette] Like, someone just pointed out that I've got three different books, one of which isn't out yet, that are essentially about... That have this through line of the cost of celebrity.

[DongWon] Interesting.

[Mary Robinette] And I'm like, oh, yeah. Elma doesn't want it,  has it forced on her. Tesla in Spare Man, that was a conscious theme of that book. And then the new one, I'm like, oh, yeah. No, look, I've done that again accidentally. Huh.


[Erin] Something that I think is really exciting to do is to use the way you write as a way to push yourself. So, something that I find in... At some point, I actually did have two stories where I was like, wow, these stories are very different, different settings, but I was like seems like I'm writing a lot of stories about a person who realizes their place in the world is worse than they thought it was and lashes out as a result. Against something or someone or in some way, and so I was like, well, that's cool. But what happens after you lash out? Like, what happens, like... It's a short story, so, like it ends there, and there's, like, a lot of implication about what that might mean. But I'm like what happens after an act of, like, violence or anger? Like, what does the community... What are we left with and how do we deal with the aftermath? And a lot of the work that I'm working on now is about what do we give to each other and what do we do as... In the aftermath of, like, an act that is not a good one, but is still one that you have to live with? And I'm like, who knows? Maybe at some point I'll get sick of those and be like then what happens, like, when you want to do restorative justice?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] [garbled] Like and so it actually becomes, like, this larger story of, like, how do we deal with life? As I have different things that I am interested in. And part of the reason that I push myself was, I was like, oh, I'm sick of writing the same story, but also, it was partly like maybe I do need to interrogate a little bit a harder thing for me to write. But it's something that I'm still interested in writing.

[Mary Robinette] I think that's exactly the key to writing the same but different, is to honor the fact that you are not the same person.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And to always be like, well, what is it... I mean, science fiction and fantasy in particular is really the story about, like, what if.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That's one of the main things that drives us. So I think doing that with your own work... It's like, well, what if I try something different? What if I push this? Even if it's not a theme or a question... What if I push this area of craft? Like, all of these things are ways to have the same but different. Because you are the same person writing it.

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly. Okay. I think we're going to leave it there. Thank you guys so much for talking this through with me. I have a little bit of homework for the audience. This one is less of a writing exercise and more of a critical one.


[DongWon] What I would love you to do is to take two works from the same franchise, either a direct sequel or just two things in a series. Could be a TV show, could be a movie, could be a book. And then I want you to take note of did you like the ways in which they handled the sequelness? Did it feel the same but different? And then I want you to do a detailed analysis of that. Really write down, component by component, what carried over, what didn't carry over? Did it feel good to you that this thing changed, did it feel good to you that this thing stayed? Did it feel really static, did it feel dynamic, did it ask new questions? And take note of that and think about it as you plan out your next work.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
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Writing Excuses 21.04: Deconstructing The Hero's Journey 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-04-deconstructing-the-heros-journey


Key Points: Departure from the real world, trials and apotheosis in the magical realm, and return to the real world. Arm bar, propelling the protagonist across the threshold. Hero: Here I am, explosions, run... The unwilling hero. Mentor! Removed before the final battle. Patterns need to be completed for satisfaction. The return! 


[Season 21, Episode 04]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 04]


[Howard] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Deconstructing the Hero's Journey. 

[Erin] Tools, not rules. For writers, by writers.

[Howard] I'm Howard.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Howard] And today, we are putting paid on tools, not rules. Because we're going to talk about the Hero's Journey. And I just need to preface this with... With a whole preamble about anxiety of influence and Hero With a Thousand Faces, and the fact that many of us look at this and think, man, I don't want to read that Joseph Campbell book, because then everything I write will end up conforming to this colonizing, culturally appropriating whatever. And you know what? You're not wrong about what the Hero's Journey might be. But we're not here to present it to you as a set of rules. We're here to present it to you as a useful toolbox. And for me, I've found that anxiety of influence always... Always, always, always... Manifests less the more I know, and the better I understand the thing that I'm afraid of.

[DongWon] And just to underscore this point about tools, not rules, I have made it this far into my publishing career, I've been doing this for 20 years professionally, I've edited hundreds of books at this point. I don't really know what the Hero's Journey is. Or at least like... I know it's, like, role in conversation, I know sort of the meta-structure of it. But in terms of what the actual steps of the Hero's Journey are, in terms of that strict application, I don't really know what all those pieces are. And so, I can see its utility as a tool. But if you just need some reassurance of, like... If you're hearing this conversation and you're like, oh, God, I don't know what the Hero's Journey is, I'm not a writer... Please, rest assured, many people don't know what it is and that's 100% fine.


[Howard] The... I mean, by way of definition, Joseph Campbell wrote Hero With a Thousand Faces, first edition, in 1949, and he was a student of comparative mythology, and he studied a lot of mythologies. Did he study all of them? No. Because that's way too big. But he studied enough to make a convincing case, backed by Jungian psychology and Freudian psychology and a whole bunch of other cultural elements that were prevalent in his culture at the time... Made a very good case for, boy, all of these mythologies seem to be tapping into some subconscious structure. And that structure looks like this. And then he describes what this is.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And it is basically departure from the real world, a... Trials and apotheosis in the magical realm, and a return to the real world in which gifts are or are not bestowed upon fellow people. And that is such a super, ultra-condensed summary. What's funny about the Hero's Journey, the book... Or Hero With a Thousand Faces, the book, is that  the... After 1977, they started changing the covers to include Luke Skywalker on the cover of the book.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Because George Lucas was a big fan of this and incorporated these structures into Star Wars.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And so it's very easy to look at the Hero's Journey, to look at the monomyth, and to say, oh, well, it's successful because it resonates with all of us, and that's why Star Wars works. And that's why Lord of the Rings works.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And that's why whatever works. And the fact of the matter is those things work because they were stories that were well told. There are plenty of things that adhere to the monomyth that are not well told and that don't work.

[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, part of the reason I use Star Wars so much as a writing example is because of this. I mean, not just because I love it and know it very well. But it is just a useful shorthand in terms of this very iconic, sort of simplistic idea of what the journey for a hero is, or what this character arc can be. And I push back pretty strongly on the idea of the monomyth. I think there are lots of different story structures that we encounter in story, from different cultures, from different perspectives. I think there are lots of different types of stories that we tell even within Western culture. But I also have this strong belief that pattern recognition is central to storytelling. Right? A lot of how human cognition is wired is to recognize patterns in the world. We then see those and communicate those to other people, and that's storytelling in a very fundamental way. And so, of course, there will be sort of nodes that appear, strange attractors, within storytelling that will be dominant in one way or another, and we can see that in the Hero's Journey. We can also see that in something like Save the Cat. We can also see that in sort of these... What's the Japanese structure that I always forget the name of?

[Howard] Kishotenketsu.

[DongWon] Yeah. Thank you. And so, I think it is useful to think about and talk about, even though what I would really urge you to not do is feel like you have to use this as a formula, when writing your story in particular.

[Erin] Yeah, because I think it has... I think the Hero's Journey has a few, like, underlying assumptions. And I'm interested to find out more about sort of what it is, because I have also sort of bounced off of it. Even without knowing it, I just bounced away from it. And as somebody who also is not a big Star Wars fan, like, I... People often use that as, like, it's the great Hero's Journey, and I'm like, I hate it. And so I don't know as much about it. But I think part of the reason is that I get really interested in stories that are about people embedded within community. And to me, the Hero's Journey is a journey, and so it is a great... Seems like a great tool for the... Like, a departure is part of it. Right? There's... Part of it is you leave the world you know and you go out. And while you could leave that world philosophically or, like, emotionally, I think a lot of times in its traditional form, it is about physically leaving behind what you know, and going somewhere else. And so I think, for me, one way to wrap my head about it is when I want to write a story of journey, this is something to consider. If I want to write a story of being under siege or of remaining, maybe it's not the thing that I want to use. But it's a great way to think about where do you leave, where do you go, and what do you come back with.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Howard] One of the commonalities in the departure, and it's not, again, it's not always this way, but it's very commonly this way, is a technique that screenwriters often called the arm bar. Which is that you are propelled into... You're propelled across the threshold, you are propelled into the adventure because all of the other choices were bad. To use Star Wars as an example, it's not until Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru have been...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Killed by the Stormtroopers...

[DongWon] Skeletonized.

[Howard] Yeah. That Luke decides to leave. It is not until... And when... The Hobbit... When Bilbo leaves. He has this whole dinner with the dwarves, and he decides not to go. And then changes his mind in the morning. And, again, using Tolkien, Frodo...

[DongWon] Yep. I've been rereading Lord of the Rings, actually, recently I was working on a narrative project early this year with a group of friends, and I had a long drive heading to do that recording and so I started listening to the audiobook of Lord of the Rings as preparation for that, because it was going to be a journey story, it was going to be a sort of classic walk into the wilderness as so much fantasy is. And the thing that struck me was how long it takes Frodo to leave the Shire. And how long that period is of him delaying and delaying and procrastinating and putting off this thing he's been told to do until the riders show up, until it is almost too late, and he's literally being chased and hounded out of this place of safety to go on this adventure.


[Erin] Yeah, it's funny. Earlier today, I was joking about a hero from Hero's Journey being an acronym...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Because I love acronyms. And I only got as far as the first three letters, but they were: here I am, explosions, run.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so... Because I think a lot of times the explosions do not necessarily have to be literal explosions, but it is the loss of family...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] The sudden danger, the thing that... That is the thing that propels you across a threshold and then you go running, and I think...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] You run away, and then you run towards something else. First you're running away from the danger, and then...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You're running towards some new goal.

[DongWon] I cracked it!

[Erin] Yes.

[DongWon] It's, oh, no, apotheosis.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And we should talk about that, maybe?

[Howard] What I was going to say is, oh, no, hero only has four letters, and there's way more pieces here.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] We are going to...

[DongWon] [garbled] That's it. We're done.

[Howard] We're going to talk about some of those pieces after a break.


[Howard] I said we were going to talk about more of the pieces. I lied a little bit, because I want to finish talking about this arm bar. The part about the Hero's Journey that I think resonates with a lot of us is that unwilling hero. Because most of us, yeah, you'd have to twist my arm to send me on that kind of thing, that kind of an adventure. I don't want to go do that, I'm very Hobbit-like. In many many ways. And so that resonates with us. Does it resonate with us because that is a grand pattern in the Jungian psyche? Or does it resonate with us because most of us like to sit at home and read books?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that it's possible to tell really good stories that begin with the hero saying, I'm picking up my sword and I'm going to go do something dangerous. And that's fine too.

[DongWon] And there's something I think about a lot, and this comes up from TT RPGs, is you run into a lot of things where, like, someone makes a character who's like, I'm a lone wolf. I don't participate in friendship and doing stuff. Right? And it's sort of like you end up in this problem where the forward momentum of the story stops before it starts, because one player will just say, I'm not going to do that thing. And so the way I like to invert it is to think about this question of why, not if. Right? If starting from this idea of if your protagonist participates in this, the answer is they're probably not, they'd rather stay home, they're scared. They're whatever. They're not paying attention to the world around them. If you instead say, okay, they are going to do this thing. Frodo is going to leave the Shire. Why does he do that? Not will he do that. Starting with the why will lead you to much more interesting narrative places and sort of unlock all the things that cascade from that moment in a way that I think is much more useful.

[Erin] Makes sense.


[Howard] One of the key pieces that, for me, identifies a thing as having been influenced by the Hero's Journey is the presence of a mentor character.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And... O, my goodness, we see this in... We see this everywhere.

[DongWon] This is Obi-Wan, this is Gandalf, this is... Yeah.

[Howard] This is Obi-Wan, this is Gandalf, this is... Yeah. Why do I try to look at that and say, oh, that's obviously Hero's Journey? Because if I take a step back, you know what? All of us, hopefully, at some point, have had mentors. This is a role that exists outside of this framework. The thing that makes the mentor character, the archetype, the meme for lack of a better word, so memorably identifiable in the Hero's Journey is that they have to get removed from the picture before we have our final battle. Gandalf has to stay... Has to fight a balrog and say, fly, you fools.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Obi-Wan has to be struck down and say, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And that is... On the one hand, I mean, it's useful to know that tool, but on the other hand, it kind of becomes a metapredictor.

[DongWon] Totally.

[Howard] If the reader sees the mentor like, oh, that guy's doomed in Act 2...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Is that an effect we want in what we're writing?

[DongWon] Well, one thing I want to flag here is... You called this a meme. Right? And I think that's accurate. There's a memetic quality to...

[Howard] Yes.

[DongWon] These kinds of structures. Right? This is the pattern recognition thing I always talk about. And it is this idea of, like, you can see this mentor figure and there's so many times I'm watching a movie and I'm like, hmm... He's dead in the next scene. Or like... It's like the old cop being like, I'm going to retire in 2 days, and you're like, you are not making it out of this movie, bud.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And I think...

[Howard] A soldier looking at the photograph of his girlfriend...

[DongWon] Totally.

[Howard] Yeah.

[DongWon] And the thing that I want to flag here is those scenes can be kind of corny. Right? Sometimes if it's too obvious, it'll feel cheesy. It'll feel what people call quote unquote trope-y. Right? And trope-y doesn't mean that you're doing the thing, it means that you're doing the thing badly, in an uncomplicated or a way that feels rote and not rooted in the story, in an emotional reality of the characters. Right? So I think that's really important, but it's also important to do the thing. Part of the satisfaction of being in a pattern is seeing the thing complete. Right? This is the thing of, like, when you're telling a mystery story, if the Poirot figure doesn't stand in a room and put all the clues together for the reader, you're missing a satisfying part of the story. If you're telling a romance, and there isn't a happily ever after, you're going to get yelled at by every romance reader in the world, because that is part of the pattern, and they're looking for that completion. What you want actually is that feeling of figuring the thing out one page before the author tells you. Right? The satisfaction... The ideal mystery conclusion or thriller conclusion is the reader figures it out just before they figure it out. Right? Because then they feel smart and they feel like, ooh, I can see all the pieces, and then you get the satisfaction of the thing resolving. Right? So you can sort of think of it as a musical scale or musical note. You want the thing to resolve in a satisfying way that feels inevitable but surprising.

[Erin] Yeah. And speaking of that kind of resolution, like, to really deconstruct the Hero's Journey, I was thinking that why does the mentor exist? And in some ways, like, the mentor exists because, as an author, as somebody telling a story, they are a vehicle to explain things, to give information about the world that someone who has been shielded from that world would never know. So there's some way... It doesn't have to be the mentor, but to me what that role is... How does the world make itself known in a way that is clear cut so that the person who is going through the journey understands what they're up against, how to do the thing that they don't know how to do, is given enough tools to put things together. And the mentor's sad demise or... I don't know, like, leaves for another planet or whatever they do to make them unavailable is really about balance. If you start a story with reluctance, then you need to end with acceptance. I do not want to go on this journey. I am now the only person who can finish this journey. And so the men... In order for that balance to happen, the mentor can't be there because they would be like, well, why don't you do it?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You've had 25 years of experience. Seems like you would be the better choice...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Than me, a person who just started doing this 3 weeks ago.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So they must be, like, taken out of the story.

[DongWon] Right.

[Erin] And so one of the things that maybe I'm taking from this is how can I, even if I'm not telling the exact Hero's Journey, look for ways to balance the way that a story begins with the way that it concludes, so you have that resolution, and how do I think about... How do I bring the world into the story? If I don't want to do it with the mentor, because it feels too trope-y, do they... In a video game, they just find, like, really detailed journal entries where people...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Going through the dystopian end of the world...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Is so nicely lettered out, like, day three, the zombies attacked again. Turns out they're allergic to water.

[DongWon] Day four...

[Erin] You know what I mean? So that you know what it is.

[DongWon] I'm being bitten by a zombie and writing it down for some reason. Why...

[Erin] Oh, no.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Castle Argh.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But each time... Those are still... It's doing the same thing. It's just doing it in a different way.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] One of my favorite examples of this, of using the Hero's Journey, but using it in a way that surprises the reader, is the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson. Because the Hero's Journey, the pattern of the Hero's Journey, we discover on about, I think, halfway through book two. I forget, it's been a while, we discover that that thing happened and the hero failed, and that's why ash falls from the sky. We had a Hero's Journey, and we had this whole archtypical thing that fits on so many points...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And what we have now is a heist crew that is trying to make a living, and in the course of doing that, they are finding ways to maybe fix things. And so... I mean, taking a step back from any sort of deconstruction of Brandon's work, using the Hero's Journey as worldbuilding, using it as something that underlies a mythos, a religion, a magic system, whatever that your characters are aware of, but they are not following the pattern... That's a great way to very quickly ground your world and make it seem real without having to do a whole lot of heavy lifting.

[DongWon] Well, one thing I wanted to point out, I was talking earlier about with patterns what we want to see is the resolution. We want to see the chord resolve. There is a second way you can resolve an ascending scale, which is to break the pattern. Right? You don't have to go to the obvious resolution, you can invert it. Right? And so when we have a pattern in story, it's often... I have this thing when I watch movies where it's not that I know what's going to happen next, it's that I can see the range of possibilities. I'm like, oh, either the monster's going to appear now or we're going to get a fake out and this is a whole nother thing. Right? And I think those inversions can be just as satisfying as giving us the thing. There's a moment in the Candyland remake directed by Nia Da Costa where... One of the main characters, like, near the end of the movie, she opens the door to a cellar and you see this descending staircase into darkness that is like below this creepy building. You know that the villain is down there. And she just looks down the hallway and says, nope, and closes the door. And it is one of those, like, perfect inversion moments of here's the pattern. We're showing you the pattern of your horror movie protagonist is going to enter a scary situation full of tension. And then we see her say, I ain't doing that. And it's so satisfying and so funny, in that moment, because you can invert the trope in a really useful way. So when you're thinking about these tools, remember you can choose to deliberately use them or not use them. But if you don't have an awareness of what pattern you're playing into, it can misfire, because I will expect you to either do it or not do it. And then if you show instead that I didn't know I was setting that up, then I'm like, oh, you're not good at this. You don't know what you're doing.


[Erin] Speaking of knowing the pattern, I am curious. We made it through the beginning, and then, oh, no, apotheosis. But is there anything we missed, like, on the back end.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] We kind of missed...

[Erin] Also, Dong...

[DongWon] Yeah, I think we made it through the first quarter.

[laughter]

[Erin] We did not actually take up the call, nor did we resolve the situation. But I'm wondering if like... If there's a quick, like, for people who number one maybe don't know apotheosis or, like, don't know the rest, we need to do that now, or...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] I will go ahead and provide a graphic for our producer to post on the web. We built monomyth light for Extreme Dungeon Mastery, which is super useful for storytellers. One of the things that gets left out of a lot of applications of Hero's Journey in story is the... It's described as a circle. And apotheosis is at six o'clock, is at the bottom of the circle. There's this whole return, which has trials, try-fail cycle often, a re-crossing of the threshold, and a delivery of the boon, whatever... The magical macguffin to the real world, and the acceptance or rejection of that by the real world. That is something that gets left off, because at least per Western storytelling, we like a narrative curve that climbs slowly and steeply to a climax, and then falls off very quickly...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] To a resolution and denouement. When you look at the print editions, the written version of Lord of the Rings, the scouring of the Shire functions really well as the last half of the Hero's Journey. It's compressed, but it functions really well as the last half. In the Peter Jackson movies, they missed that all together and still gave us five endings. But that's a separate discussion. But it felt like the right decision, because going back to the Shire would have been...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Way too much movie.

[DongWon] Well, it's one of the great sins of modern storytelling is there's no space for denouement. Right?

[Howard] Yeah.

[DongWon] There's no space for us seeing the characters in their apotheosis after they've done the thing. One of my favorite books of all time is Robin McKinley's The Robin and The Crown, which... Kind of a spoiler, but, like, the whole back half of the book is after she does the thing. Right? The Hero's Journey part of it is only the first part, and then you realize that the Hero's Journey is actually the thing that happens after you do the thing. And it makes it one of the most interesting examinations of what it is to be a hero, what it is to do hard things, what it is to engage with the world that makes that truly one of my favorite fantasy novels of all time.


[Howard] Well, we are far enough in that we need to cross the threshold into homework.

[DongWon] Have we apotheosized?

[Howard] I don't think we get to apotheosis.

[laughter]

[Howard] If that ever shows up in an episode, everybody will know.

[DongWon] No, we've gone super sane here. This is it.


[Howard] Homework for you. I want you to take an outline of the Hero's Journey. And we'll go ahead and provide one in the liner notes. And just on an index card, on a Post-It note, or something, from memory, write down as many stories, movies, TV shows, operas, whatever you can think of that adheres to this pattern. Just as a mental exercise to see if the pattern... If you understand the way the pattern is being applied.


[DongWon] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
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Writing Excuses 21.03: Deconstructing Plots 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-03-deconstructing-plots


Key Points: [Fair warning! They do NOT deconstruct plots in this episode, they talk about what that means and how they are going to do it during this season.] What does deconstructing plots mean? What's the essence, or the components of plots? What principles do these plot recipes have in common? The action plot and the emotion plot. Borrow a plot structure, then improvise and add your own details and flourishes. Arcs and through lines.Rules like the story must have a character with a problem or must have conflict are made to be broken. What draws us in? What pulls us through a story? Hooks! Beginnings, middles, and ends. Breaking rules! Signalling. Understanding the ripple effects. Rule of 3. Looking at specific plot structure, take them apart, and look at why and how they work.


[Season 21, Episode 03]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 03]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Deconstructing plots.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[Mary Robinette] And, we are going to be talking about the other big thread that we're going to be running through the whole year. So, deconstructing plots. What does that even mean?

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] There's this thing that you'll see with food where they're like, this is a deconstructed peanut butter sandwich, where they get into, like, what the essence of things are. So, I've been thinking a lot about what the salt, fat, acid, heat of plot structure is. And what we're going to be doing this year is we are going to be digging into a bunch of different plot structures, looking at why they work, and then looking at the individual components of things that go into story. So, because, I mean, there are so many plot structures out there. But you... Flashing back to all of our metaphors, they're just recipes. So what are the underlying principles that they all have in common that lead us to things like the inciting incident, or the dark night of the soul? Like, what are those things?


[DongWon] I'm really excited for this season. And as soon as you pitched it, I was like very in on it. And I'm in on it for a contrary reason. Because I don't really believe in plot structures.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] So, I think there's a thing about doing this podcast and about teaching, which is, whenever I ask... Am asked to teach a class or we're talking about the season, I love doing it about something I don't really understand. Which is contrary, because, like, if I'm going to teach, I should probably know about it. But sometimes the act of digging into teaching it gets my head around it in a way that I hadn't before. So, when you were talking about let's deconstruct plots, I was like, hell, yes. Let's go. Because it's a thing that I don't feel like I have a really great handle on. Right? Like, obviously, I can tell when a story is slow, I can tell when the story structure isn't hitting in all these different ways. But, for me, I always round it up to, oh, plot distance from character. That's like my one rule about plot is that plot distant from character. It's not helpful in 90% of situations where we need to talk about plot. So, anyways, this is just me saying (A) I'm going to be the audience surrogate here, being like, what do we mean? What does that mean?

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And then (B) I'm just excited, really excited to dig into this. Yeah.

[Erin] I think I'm really similar, actually.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] So we can fight over who can be the audience surrogate. Like, I like plot, I gue... I mean, it's there. It's in a story.

[DongWon] It's obviously important.

[Erin] But I think it is interesting in that I really, I think, overindex away from plot.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Thinking back to my sort of soap opera roots, like, soap operas are such like... They're on every day. And so there are days in which, like, nothing really happens. Except a few... Maybe there's a conversation, and somebody looks good in a dress...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And then there are days in which everyone gets slapped. Which are fun. But knowing how to link from one of those events to the next... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I sort of feel like, to go back to a different metaphor, not mine, fashion. I sometimes feel this way about clothing. Like, I can say this thing looks good at the Met Gala, and this one does not, to me. But if you ask me why, and then you ask someone who actually understands clothes why, like, they would be like, oh, it's this cut, it's this line, it's the whatever. It's that long speech from...

[DongWon] The Devil Wears Prada.

[Erin] The Devil Wears Prada. Where the character like... Who is it, Meryl Streep?

[DongWon] Cerulean.

[Erin] Yeah, she explains like all the things that go into...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You deciding to wear this blue top. And I don't understand a lot of that.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And instead, I'm working on instinct. Which is great when you just wanted to say which one looks better. But if you're home, trying to figure out how to dress yourself, and you don't understand the underlying principles, you might be like, oh, this looked good on this person but not on me, and I don't understand why, I just have to keep trying.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And especially if you are early in your career and you don't trust your own taste, and then you are second-guessing yourself all the time before you go out the door to a party.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] And so I started off when I was writing, I know people have heard me say this before, that I understood character. Like, that was a thing from theater that I understood. But I would write really good... Like, stories that had a really good beginning, a really good middle, and a really good ending to three completely different stories...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] That just happened to have the same set of characters. So structure and plot was the thing that I really focused on. And one of the mistakes that I made, I think early on, was that I thought plot was just about the action, the things that happened. And plot isn't. When you say plot distance from character, Rebecca Roanhorse describes this as there's an action plot and there's an emotion plot. Yeah. Which is really interesting. So she thinks that when... That the failure mode of an action plot is... Some of this, sometimes you'll see in science fiction early career stuff, where there's so many things happening, but you don't understand why any of it's important.

[DongWon] Totally. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, they focused on the action too much, and they've forgotten the emotion.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And the failure mode of the emotion plot you'll see in some literary fiction where they focused so much on the emotion that, like, nothing happens. So, both of those things are important. But you're right. How do we do these things? The thing for me is something I always go back to, which is that I do just want to write on instinct. I do just want to do the art of it. But the idea that technique exists for when the art isn't there. And so I don't think that people need to be thinking about these things all the time. The reason we keep saying tools, not rules, is that it's nice to have a toolbox. And you can... Like, I can improvise a meal in the kitchen.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But I didn't start off improvising a meal. I started off following recipes. When I started writing, I didn't start off improvising a plot structure. Like, some of my early structures, if you look at it, like, my first sale is Rapunzel. It is... It's like hitting those beats. Like, there's a lot of things where I borrowed someone else's plot structure. And I think that we do that when it's like, oh, I love this thing that's so-and-so wrote, and I want to write a book like that. It's like, yeah, you want to copy their recipe, which is... There is nothing wrong with that. You can improvise around that, you can add your own details and flourishes. This isn't, hey, everybody, everything should be original and new. It's like... I think there are actually things.

[Erin] What I love about the way you're talking about plot is it's like... maybe I like plot more than I think because I often think about arcs and through lines in a piece. Which... Like, if that is also... When you talk about an emotion plot, I'm like, oh, I'm often thinking about what's the emotional through line, or what's like the knowledge through line. Like, what's... Who knows what when and why, and how does it affect them? But I never think of that as plot, I think, because I often associate plot as being rules, not tools. Like, I often think of plot as like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You must do these six things in this exact order, or else you have broken everything. And I hate that.

[DongWon] Yeah. And I think one thing that comes... I think about a lot of times when those... The rules of plot... Those are very culturally defined, too. Right? Like... I'm someone who... Certainly when it comes to my taste in movies, I'm notorious for liking the slowest, most glacially paced things imaginable. Like, when you were talking about the... Like, it's a failure of... The action plot, if they focus too much on the emotional, I just thought immediately of three of my favorite films...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] That I would describe as literally nothing happens in this movie. A man cleans bathrooms for 2 hours, and then I'm crying, and I'm like, this is a perfect movie. But also, that movie is made by a western director, but is about a Japanese man, takes place in Japan, and he's using non-western plot structures. Right? And so to say that it is plotless is only from a perspective of a western audience member who's expecting Hero's Journey. Who's expecting certain kinds of beats and structures. And instead, what I'm being fed is really different structures. So when I watch [long Kong?], when I watch Korean cinema, these kinds of things are pulling from very different rhythms and expectations.


[Mary Robinette] Like, there's this rule that a story must have a character with a problem...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And I... And there's con... A story must have conflict. And I push against that so hard...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because, like, one of my favorite stories that I think is one of... Like, the perfect story out there is Ray Bradbury's There Will Come Soft Rain.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And there's like... Show me the character with a problem and the action? Like, there's not. You can make an argument for the house, but really, no. And so...

[DongWon] At the beginning of the story, the house is sad and lonely. At the end of the story, the house is sad and lonely. Nothing changes.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. A character does not have to undergo change. Sherlock Holmes...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Doesn't undergo change...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But the stories are so engaging. And I think that there are reasons that they're so engaging. Like, what draws us in? And so, the thing for me is when you were talking, Erin, about through lines and arcs, the thing that I've been thinking about is, well, what pulls us through a story? And we talk about a hook. And you have different hooks to attract... I'm going to actually use the fishing metaphor instead of sheep...

[laughter]

[Erin] Not the sheep.

[Mary Robinette] For readers... Or for listeners, I previously confessed that I had for years thought that it was talking about a shepherd's hook instead of a fishing hook. To move the sheep around. But it... When you're fishing, you've got a hook, you've got different lures on that. To... And different lures depending on what you're trying to catch, depending on what your intentions are. So I think with, when we're looking at fiction, it's a lot of the same thing. We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we're going to talk about some of the kinds of areas we're going to be poking at for the rest of the season.


[Mary Robinette] Okay. Welcome back. So, what are some things that you can look forward to? Are we going to be talking about beginnings? [pause] Yes.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] I look at the other two and they're like, I haven't looked at the outline for this season.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Wait, wait. You wanted us to know the structure of the season?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] We just said we're not structure people.

[Mary Robinette] But we...

[Erin] Through lines...

[Mary Robinette] But I think the... Like, one of the few things that stories have in common...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Is beginning, middle, end.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] If for no other reason than you start reading it and then you stop reading it [garbled]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] So I think...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, looking at what are some things that are consistent when you're looking at all of these different structures? We're going to be looking at middles. Like, people talk about the saggy middle. What are all the things... Like, most of the story actually happens in the middle.

[DongWon] It is most of the book. Yes.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So...

[DongWon] It's not the part that everyone remembers the most, usually. Right? So what's actually happening there? What makes it effective? And how do you keep people moving through it? These are all really, really important questions.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And, I assume the ending, at some point, we will definitely talk about. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] We will talk... We will definitely talk...

[Erin] And how does it land? It's funny, like, how much an ending can, like, taint or make a story. I think about, weirdly, two endings that I love that other people did not like. Which are the ending of Lost and the ending of Mass Effect 3.

[DongWon] Interesting.

[Erin] It's like I'm the only one in history...

[DongWon] Both of these are like heretical tastes.

[laughter]

[Erin] Don't add me.

[DongWon] But my canonic one is I really like the ending of Sunshine, the Stanley Boyle movie that everyone loves the first half and hates the second half. But I'm like, I don't know, I think the whole thing works.

[Erin] Yeah. But it's interesting...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Thinking about, like, why do these things work?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, for me, Lost works because the ending is an emotional ending, and I cared more about the emotional content than the solving puzzles content of that particular piece. So it hit me in the heart, it didn't need to hit me in the head.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah.

[Erin] You know what I mean? And for... I can't remember why I liked Mass Effect 3, but I remember being like, people are very mad, but I like these pretty colors.

[DongWon] People are too mad, but it is still insane to say that you like that ending.[garbled] to calm down.

[Erin] But I do think it's really interesting to think about, like, how do we do that, because what's unfortunate...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] I think about... The reason I picked those examples are they're two things where people never talk about the rest of it anymore.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] They only talk about the ending. And so if people are going to over index on the ending, what does that mean...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That you have to do as a writer in order to not have them only be talking about [garbled]

[DongWon] Totally.

[Mary Robinette] Right. And also the fact that they... I think one of the reasons that people are mad about both of those is that they broke a rule.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] And so deciding when you're going to break it. We do talk about tools, not rules, but the fact is that people have expectations, and a lot of these rules arose because someone reverse engineered something that they did by accident.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Other people were like, oh, that's the way it should always be. And then an audience will overindex on, well, that's the way it must be. But the other reason is that when you do that reverse engineering, when you figure out, well, what did I do, how did I get to this point, that a lot of times it is because it created a specific effect.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so if your audience... If you've used all the tools at the beginning to set up one effect...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It's like this is the effect I'm going to give you, and then they are disappointed in that, that's where the disconnect happens.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So I think... We've talked last season a little bit when Erin was talking about the chapter that's going in our craft book, Now Go Write, about breaking rules. It's like if you... I think it's like if you understand the effect of this thing, then you can decide how you're going to use it.

[DongWon] It's signaling that you meant to break that rule that's important. I think about another famous like, quote unquote, bad ending that I adore, which is Neon Genesis Evangelion. That ending is completely bonkers. I love it because it closes an emotional arc, like Lost for you. But it also is that way because they ran out of money and time. Right? And so they weren't able to signal we're doing this on purpose...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Because, quite frankly, they weren't doing it on purpose. I think they did something incredible that works. But it is the hand holding component, it is the hey, we know we're breaking a rule. We know you expected X, but we're going to give you Y. Trust us and go with it. And when that doesn't happen, I think that's when it feels like a mistake.

[Erin] And I actually think that's why it's so important to actually learn more.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, I'm really excited to learn more about...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] These plot structures, because what you don't want to have happen is everyone is aware, whether intentionally or unintentionally, of a particular plot thing that you are doing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And then you don't know that that's what you're doing, so you break away from it without signaling. Like somebody who cuts across eight lanes of highway without signaling. And you're like, oh my gosh, now you've caused an accident, what is happening? And I want to know what those rules are so that I...

[DongWon] Totally.

[Erin] Can break them intentionally.

[Mary Robinette] And I think it's actually in some cases less about signaling than understanding the ripple effects of the decision you've made.

[DongWon] Yeah. And sort of building on that, it's... When we say rules, it... There's not a committee sitting that's being like, here are the rules of fiction. If you follow them, you'll be fine. Humans are creatures of pattern recognition. Right? All storytelling is, is pattern recognition. We're seeing the same rhythms, we have the same expectations of like, oh, here's what happens in a story, because of all the other ones we've experienced, all the other ones that we've observed. Right? And so when we talk about different story structures, when we talk about different expectations, whether that's three act structure, seven point plot structure, non-western structures, all these different things. That is because over time people have developed certain expectations by observing certain patterns over and over again. So when you are breaking with that expectation, when you're breaking that pattern, knowing what other patterns there are, and moving from pattern A to pattern B, or just even inverting the pattern on purpose, becomes really important. So that you're not just chaotically wandering off the path, and then it doesn't match to anything we know.


[Mary Robinette] Let me give a really concrete example of this kind of thing, which is the rule of three.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, you hear it all the time. Three times is funny. Third time... Three times is... Bad things come in threes. Good things come in three. Three things is... Three times is funny. All of these are this expectation in Western culture that it's going to be one, two, three got it. And some other cultures, it's rule of five, rule of seven... I think there's one that's rule of 11. I'm like, whew, those are long evenings.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But, once you know that, that the audience is expecting this dun, dun, dun, got it, if you've been watching media and it's like, this is very predictable, it's probably because they've been doing rule of three every time. And so you can manipulate that. If you want something to feel harder for a character, then you can go to a rule of four or five. They have to put in four or five efforts. If you want it to be easier, you can do a rule of one or two. You can even have the character go into it expecting it to be hard, get it on the first try, and have them be like, oh my goodness. That there's this big cathartic release that they were not expecting, the reader wasn't expecting it, because they're expecting this buildup to it. So if you know that, then you go in and you consciously break the rule of three for the effect, because you know what the audience expectations are.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That's the kind of thing where I'm like, you don't have to signal it, but you just have to know what the ripple effects are.

[DongWon] Exactly. So you can set up the pattern, and then break it.

[Erin] Yeah. And what I love about when you mentioned them all is that while there are maybe some that don't fit into this, it's a very odd number. So I actually think the desire for things to be in odd numbers is like a human brain thing that goes across cultures. But some go five, some go seven, some go nine, but it's rare to have like six, for some reason. Like, I don't know why our brains are like this. What I think is interesting is just knowing that, like, there's a discomfort in things ending in an even way.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] It's like if the fourth one was the one you ended up with. Like, maybe something is wrong about this. Can make you... If in fact you wanted it to secretly be the fifth, the fourth seems right, but in fact, something is wrong there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] You can actually, like, when you understand these patterns, it's like you can subconsciously create things going on...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That even the reader will understand why it feels off, but it just does.

[DongWon] You can be deliberately unsettled, you can make things feel unfinished, like the chord doesn't resolve. And then, if you're telling a horror story, if you're telling something psychologically upsetting... Yeah. Make it four. Four feels bad. I don't know why, but it does.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] It's death. So this is the kind of thing that we're going to be talking about this season. And, in addition to that, what we are also going to be doing is we are going to be taking plot structures, like the three act structure, the Hero's Journey, the Heroine's Journey, the four act structure... like, we're going to be looking at a bunch of different very specific plot structures and taking them apart and going, well, why does this work? Why do we have to have that thing here? So those are the things that we're going to be doing this season.


[Mary Robinette] So, for your homework, what I want you to do is I want you to grab something that you like. And I want you to kind of look at it and do... We've talked about doing reverse engineering of outlines before. I want you to do that with this, but in a kind of very gentle way. I just want you to go through and say, scene good? Scene bad? Like, good thing happen, bad thing happen? As the overall takeaway from the scene. And look to see if there's a pattern that you did not realize was in that work.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write.

 
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[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.02: My Process is Not Your Process 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-02-my-process-is-not-your-process


Key Points: Barriers? Where do you start? Why am I not doing a thing? Stimulus! Patterns. Notice what you are doing, look for intersections, and figure out the ties. Observation and self-examination. What works for you? Lower the threshold, the friction. Give yourself permission to not do something, too. Then what? Link things together, make chains. Look for what you are eager to do. Pavlov dogging. Pay attention to physical, simple things. Be your own nice assistant! Give yourself good advice. Listen to yourself more than to other people.


[Season 21, Episode 02]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 02]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] My process is not your process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.


[DongWon] This week, we wanted to start digging into one of our season 21 topics here. Which is, we're going to be talking about the barriers to writing. Things that get in your way, things that block you from accomplishing the goals that you set for yourself. Last week, we talked about intention setting and goals, and now we're going to start talking about ways in which you can start breaking down the things that stand between you and those intentions. To do that, we want to talk about processes. Last year, we spent a bunch of time talking about each of our individual processes for getting work done. For accomplishing your goals. And in this episode, we wanted to start shifting away from here's what we do to start talking about okay, if they do X, Y, and Z, how do I figure out what works for me? So when it comes to each of you in terms of building out what your process looks like, where do you start with that? Where do you start with the I need to figure something else out, I need to change something, or figuring it out in the first place?

[Mary Robinette] So I spend a lot of time, just in my own personal life, not just with writing, trying to figure out why am I not doing the thing?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Trying to figure out what my barrier is. Because the thing that I have found is that there's usually a reason that I'm not doing a thing. I've talked before about humans are mammals. And one of the things my dog trainer said about our dog was that when you have a dog that's reacting to something, that the first thing you should do is remove the thing that they're reacting to. It's not that they're misbehaving, they are having a response to a stimulus. And so that... What I... Like, when I am... When I'm doing avoidance reaction, when I'm doing things like that, I am having a response to a stimulus, and I need to figure out what that stimulus is and how to either remove it or to reshape my reaction to it. And so that's one of the things that I do when I'm sitting down and, like, trying to figure out, okay, the process is broken, how do I find a new process?

[Erin] I think, for me, I look a lot for patterns in my own life and figure out like, why is something happening? A pattern... I think I told you about this on the podcast years ago is that I discovered once that I would start buying lottery scratch off tickets when I was unhappy at work. And I didn't realize for a long time... I'd be like, I just feel like there's periods of my life where I appear to be buying all these lottery scratch offs, and then I lose interest. Like, what is that about? And so I started paying attention, like, when am I doing this? Is it certain days of the week? Is it when I pass a specific store? And eventually, I was like, no, it's every time I'm having, like, a really bad day, and so I'm in my mind envisioning that I will win the lottery and never have to go back to work.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] This is like what's happening beneath the surface. But it required me to notice that I was doing something a bunch, think about where else intersected with things in my life, even things I would not have expected, and then try to figure out what's the tie between them. And so I think anytime there's something that feels like a barrier, I try to figure out what is that barrier tied to, where's the pattern? Because once you know the pattern, you can then... At least being aware of it, I think, sometimes does a lot of the work, and then you can also try to break it down.

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah. I think it really has to start with observation. Right? And self-examination. I'm in a moment right now where I'm, like, rebuilding a bunch of different work processes in my life for a variety of reasons. One of which is, I just moved again. And so I'm sort of figuring, okay, now that I'm in this new physical space, also in this different place in my career, also in this different sort of situation with various projects, what do I need right now and how do I assemble a process that works for me? Right? So I think starting with what are those barriers, like, or what are those patterns, at least, before we even get to the barriers? Or, like, what am I currently doing? Are these things serving me? I think is the first thing to start with. Right? In terms of, like, my day looks like this. What... My goals for this week were this, here's what I actually accomplished, here's the stuff that's a problem, here's the stuff that's not. And, like, at least starting with that self-assessment I think can be really, really helpful in terms of, like, figuring out do I need to change anything, what needs to change, and what even is my process right now?


[Erin] I think that can work both ways, which is that you can also observe the patterns that are serving you.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In one of the process episodes, I can't remember which one, we talked about learning how you got yourself to do things, like, what gets you past barriers in other aspects of your life.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so, if there's something that's like a trick that you figured out that, like, get you to work when you don't want to work or get you to the gym when you're like, ugh, I'm not sure about this, then is there something there that you can mine and figure out, well, I'm not going to do it the exact same way, but there's something at the heart of what I'm doing here that works for me, and I can use it to push down the barriers once I figure out what they are.

[Mary Robinette] There's an essay, and I can't remember what the exact title of the essay is, but it's something along the lines of The Cab Is The Ritual. And the person who's writing it says that they go to the gym everyday. But going to the gym, that's not the thing, it's the ritual, the thing that gets them to the gym is getting the taxi. And so, if they think about all of the things that they need to go to do to get the taxi, and they've got all of that stacked up, once they get in the taxi, the ritual is complete, and now they know that anything that follows from that is something that they have previously done before that makes them feel good. But the... But recognizing, oh, okay, if I... If I set... If I set the once I do this, then that follows, and you set the once I do this at a lower threshold, then a lot of times... Obviously this is someone in New York who...

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But I... That's the kind of thing that I think about when I'm hearing you talk, Erin, about, like, what are the patterns, How can I... How can I find a thing?

[DongWon] Right. Right.

[Erin] And I really relate to that, because when I was actually trying to go to the gym or in New York, one thing I would do is always change into my gym clothes before I left the office.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And I would tell myself, you do not have to go to the gym. All you have to do is be in gym clothes and walk past the gym. You can walk past the gym and go home. But you have to walk past it. And like nine times out of 10, it's like, well, I'm here, I'm in gym clothes, here's my gym. But sometimes I would walk past it. And having the permission to sometimes, like, not be at... Just because you figured out a pattern doesn't mean it works 100% of the time, or that sometimes the barrier is there for a reason. Sometimes you're exhausted, and you're like, my pattern is to write every day, but, like, I can't even keep my eyes open. Maybe this one time, like, I can let the pattern go and it won't destroy everything that I've built is something that I think is really nice, which is permission to yourself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] To be human. Because I think sometimes when we think about barriers, it's like if I'm not slaying it every single time, then, like, I am a failure at breaking down barriers, and I might as well not try at all.

[DongWon] Yeah. This is where the idea of a practice comes back in for me. The difference between an intention and a goal, a practice versus a pattern. You know what I mean? And it's like having the permission to not do the things sometimes, at least for me, is very, very useful for helping me (A) not beat myself up the one time I do slip and I don't do the thing, but also to lower that initiation cost into getting... If I don't have to... If, for me, sometimes I feel oppositional to being told to do something. Right? A shocking surprise to everyone in my life.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] But I think lowering that friction can be really helpful.

[Mary Robinette] And, on the other hand, if you are someone for whom a streak really works...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And breaking the streak can cause that entire process to collapse, then... Then what I would say is find the smallest version of that streak, because if you say I always write 2,000 words, then... And you hit a day when you can't because you have the flu, then that process is going to collapse on you. But if you... If you're like I always open my document. That's like the lowest threshold you can possibly set it at.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Then that's something that you can maintain. But, again, like, not everybody's brain works the same way. Some people, if it breaks, it doesn't... So looking at the patterns outside of writing...


[DongWon] It's funny. I have this physical object that is a calendar made by the maker Simone Yurts or Simone Yetts. Yeah. And it's a board that has every day of the year on it. And when you press it, it lights up. Right? So all you do... It's called the Every Day Calendar, you just, like, tap it and it, like, marks that you did a thing that day.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, neat.

[DongWon] And it can be used for a variety of things. And when I've tried to use it for, like, I'm gonna like meditate for 10 minutes every day, or I'm gonna like go for a 5 mile run, or I'm gonna do XYZ. Those are the times when I found myself skipping often. I've started using it again recently, and all it is, is I open my notebook to look at my task list. It's not I did anything on that task list, it is not I rewrote, it's nothing more than I took my notebook, I opened it up, and looked at it. That's all I have to do to mark it. And so it... Having something that's very low friction, it is letting me mark the thing on the thing so that it all lights up and it looks pretty and I'm like, oh, there are the weekends I didn't do it, then... You know what I mean? That is really, really helpful, and sometimes, like, being that generous with yourself in terms of, like, what are the things I need to get me into the mindset? I think this is like my work version of, yeah, I put on my workout clothes before I leave the office. And so I want to talk a little bit more about what we actually do once we've, like, lowered that friction a little bit. But first, let's take a quick break.


[DongWon] Okay. Welcome back. Before the break, we were talking about sort of, like, how we manage to reduce the friction when we're building out our processes, when we're starting to figure out what are the things that we can do that make it a little bit easier to activate when whenever we need to do the thing.

[Mary Robinette] So then I think the next question is, though, okay, so we figured out how to lower the friction, what do I do next?

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly. So once you've, like, lowered that friction, how do you start taking that next step? How do you identify here's the next thing I need to be doing in the chain? For me, it's often like, okay, I've opened that notebook, I looked at the thing, what are the useful steps I can take from this point? Right? And sometimes that is as simple as, okay, rewrite the list. Remake that list. Sometimes it is, oh, this has reminded me of this email that I forgot to send last night that I've got to send right now.

[Mary Robinette] I find that I have similar things where it's if I use my checklist, if I use my notebook, I'm much better. But what I also find when I'm trying to, like, figure out a process, a routine, a ritual, whatever that is, is that if I can link things together so that there's kind of a natural flow, that it is, again... It's part of reducing the friction.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And that sometimes the way I figure that out is by doing what Erin talked about, just looking at patterns for ah, here's something that I'm eager to do, and look at the things that I'm eager to do, think about why I'm eager to do those, and then how I can either attach the thing that I... The next thing to something that I'm eager to do, or how I can re-engineer the thing that I don't want to do into something that has similar properties to the thing I'm eager to do. So...

[Erin] Yeah. I'm a big fan of, like, the what you're eager... Like, attaching things together that wouldn't otherwise be attached. Something that I will sometimes do is, not to make everything about working out, but when I get hungry, I think, like, the best time to have food, in my opinion, is right after you work out.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Your body is like, this is delish. And so when I get hungry, I think, I'm hungry, this is a sign that I should go work out so that I can have the most delicious food. Ever. So I think I've turned, like, this one body signal into a signal to do another thing, as opposed to thinking, like, oh, when am I gonna work out today, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, beginning signs of hunger? Oh, yeah, baby, like let's go. And so that is something. And I also will cook food while... I have an air fryer... While I'm working out. And so, like, as I'm working out, the food, I can smell it and it's like, I'm Pavlov dogging myself...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Into associating exercise with getting delicious food.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so therefore I'm, like, creating a way not just to, like, lower friction but to create some sort of, like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] This tie between things...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] That may not be tied except I forced them to be.

[Mary Robinette] That's really interesting because you actually just reminded me of a thing that I was, like, I... That works for me, but I'd kind of forgotten that I did. Because it's been working for so long. Which is I realized at some point that when I'm writing or avoiding writing as the case may be, but when I reach for my phone, that it's because the task in front of me is hard and I'm fleeing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so I can't... Like, that impulse is hard to break, so what I've retrained myself is that when I reach for my phone, instead of opening social media, I have an app called Sweepy, which will present you with one task which you should do around the house. And they're like 5 minute tasks. And so I go and I do the 5-minute task, and that gives me a little bit of time away from the computer. I've accomplished a thing, so I feel better. Something about my house is a little bit tidier. And also, because it's a non-narrative thing that I'm doing, it gives me time to kind of think about the thing. And then I can go back. And if I nope that again, that I will do sometimes two or three household chores, and then I'm... But usually that is enough for me to kind of get away. Whereas when I pick up my phone and I go into social media, I'm in there... Like, the rest of the day is lost.

[DongWon] Yeah. What I really like about both of your examples is when I think about getting stuck in process. Right? When I'm thinking about, like, oh, my process isn't serving me in some way, I think the physicality of it, the embodiment of myself in that process becomes really important for me to think about, too. And those are simple things, like, do I need water? Am I hungry? Right? Have I been outside today? Am I just like in my dark office staring at my screen, or do I need to get up and walk around? Should I go stretch or go outside? Like... Or even, like, do I need to change the setup of my office? Right? If... Is the problem that I'm not getting a natural light? Maybe I should actually open my curtains for once. You know what I mean? And I think those things and observing and thinking about those processes not just, like, as abstract work, but also remembering that you are a person who unfortunately has a body and has to be in the world.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[Erin] Well, I think also I like to treat myself like I am my own, like, nicest assistant. Which, like, sometimes you're doing something and it's a small stress. So, like, I like to drink cans of soda water when writing. And for a long time, I would just, like, put them on the side of the desk. And then it's like they're messy and they're there and I thought, like, if I was a really nice, like, person for me, I would buy myself, like, a tiny trash can. So that, like, I could put all my cans in the recycling and they would be behind me. I wouldn't have to see them. And then when I took them downstairs, I would feel like, great, now it's not bothering me.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And I think a lot of times, like, my instinctive response to a small bother will be like I should not be bothered by that.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Whereas my lovely assistant version of me, like my, like, good partner version of me, would be like, well, how can we actually just not have that bother you at all?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] As opposed to you becoming unbothered by it. And so now I... A lot of times, if something is like a very small thing in my space, it doesn't feel like it affects the writing, but it's like... Sometimes I'll be like, oh, there's all these cans here, like, oh, I should go... I should go do this, I should go do that, I'm such a messy person, and it like gets me out of the... Out of the flow.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In a way that putting something in the trash can never does.

[Mary Robinette] You said something that I'm like, what kind of gift can I...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, some... And that, I think, is one of the biggest things you can do. Because we give really good advice to our friends.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Like, all of us do.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] You, listener, give really good advice to your friend. So one of the things that I was doing for a little while when I was at a point where I was... This was right after mom had died when I was trying to rebuild my process. I started writing... At the end of the day, I would write, Dear Past Self, here are all the things you did really well today. And when I got up in the morning, I would write, Dear Future Self, here are the challenges that you're facing, here are some strategies to help you get past those things. And that helped so much.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So I think you can do that. That's a thing that you can do for yourself about your writing process, about anything else. Dear past self, here's the stuff. And the first time I did it, my instinct was, wow, you really messed up today. And I'm like, no, that's not how I would say this to a friend. How would I say this to a friend? Like, there were a lot of challenges, and you worked really hard to get past them, and here are the things you did anyway.

[DongWon] It's like a thing I say about relationships sometimes. It's like your partner should treat you at least as well as they would treat a stranger. You know what I mean? In terms of like politeness...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Consideration, and things like that. And you completely derailed me by being like you should treat yourself at least as good as you treat a stranger.

[laughter]

[DongWon] It's like, well, damn.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah, yeah.

[DongWon] I'm going to have to think about that one for a second.

[Mary Robinette] [garbled] A little uncomfortable there. So those are things... I think what we keep saying here is ask yourself questions, pay attention to patterns, like, trust your reactions. So if you're having a bad reaction to something, that's from a stimulus.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So you have to reshape that, or remove it in some way.

[Erin] Yeah. I was just thinking that, which is that sometimes, like, a process like we may have said something during this podcast or previously where you're like, no, do not want.

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah.

[Erin] Hate it for me, and I think, like, pay attention to that.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] Just because somebody is not you doesn't mean that they know better than you. In fact, they probably don't. But I think sometimes we are willing to, like, listen to other people tell us how we should be, as opposed to listening to what...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] We know about ourselves.

[DongWon] I love that. And I think that's a perfect segue into our homework...


[DongWon] Which is, I want you to start taking these first steps towards listening to yourself. So, my homework for you is to make a list of all the steps that go into your writing process. Start small. Start with the little things and work outwards towards the big macro things that you need to keep moving forward in your writing. Right? Start with I like to write at this time... I like to use this keyboard at this computer, and use this program, and I need to write for this amount of time. Whatever it is. Just make a list. Free associate it, don't put too much stress on it, and then work backwards to the I need to feel a certain way, I need my environment to be a certain way. And once you've made that list, just go through and consider if each of those items is serving you in this process or not, and are they something you want to change? You don't need to know how yet. All I'm asking you to do at this point is observe and feel and see what your process actually is.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write.

 
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[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 21.01: Welcome to the New Year! 


From https://writingexcuses.com/21-01-welcome-to-the-new-year


Key Points: New tagline: Tools, not rules! For writers, by writers. You are a writer. What's coming: Deconstructing structure and barriers to writing. And some wildcards. Thinking critically about structure and what are the pieces. Unpack it, break open the toolkit. Why and how does it work? Intentions and barriers. 


[Season 21, Episode 21]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 21, Episode 01]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Welcome to the New Year!

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Howard] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Mary Robinette] Welcome, everybody, to 2026 and our season 21. The podcast is officially old enough to drink, depending on where you live.

[Chuckles] 

[Mary Robinette] As a result, we decided to make some changes. Small ones. Like, we have a new tagline, you'll have noticed. We're going to talk about why we made that change. And then we're going to tell you about the curriculum that we've got planned for you for this season, and we'll talk about some intentions as well. So, why did we change the tagline?

[Howard] We changed the tagline because Dan said we should, and he gave us this, for writers, by writers, tools, not rules, which kind of sums up who and why we are and have been since 2008. Writers, talking about writing, and we're talking about the tools we use, rather than trying to prescribe, proscribe, inscribe any...

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Sort of laws for you to live by, and I like that.

[DongWon] Yeah, it's a really nice way to think about what we're trying to do here. Right? I think so much of writing advice you see on the Internet or in person or whatever it is can be very, very prescriptive. It can be this is the only way to do this, this is the only way to write, like, you must do XYZ to be a successful writer. And I think a lot of that comes from a very understandable place. People want to have a simple way of doing things, people are used to doing things their way, and think that can apply very broadly. But from our perspective, each of us has a different background, each of us has a different approach to our various practices. I see a lot of different techniques across a lot of different writers, and so I think trying to avoid this space where we end up being very prescriptive, but still can give useful, actionable advice. I think tools, not rules, is really where we landed as a podcast. We've had a lot of conversation among the group of us of who are we, what is our identity as a podcast, what are our goals, what are we trying to accomplish with all this. And I think just making sure people do have the tools to succeed is so much of our mission.

[Howard] The aha! moment for me was when... I tried to come up with... Certainly there's some hard and fast rule. A writer has to write. You gotta sit down in front of the keyboard. And then I realized, no, wait, I know at least one New York Times best-selling author who dictates his novels into a machine, and I know people who write longhand. And so, nope. That's not a rule, that's just the way...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] I happen to do it. And if at that most basic level, how I make the words appear on whatever I'm calling a page at the time, if that can't be held in common across all writers, then there are no rules at all.

[DongWon] There's just personal practice.


[Erin] I also just want to talk a little bit about the for writers, by writers. And I think part of it is about I think it can be really easy for people to say, oh, I'm not a writer yet. I'm not a writer, I didn't write yesterday. I'm not a writer, my writing hasn't been published. I'm not a writer, a thousand thousand different reasons. but I think, like, looking at all of us, like, listening to all of us, we all come to writing from different places. We all write in different ways, in different formats. And if we can all call ourselves writers, then I want to offer that as a way to say call yourself a writer as well. By listening to this podcast, you are now a writer. I have said it, I am the arbiter of all things bizarre...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And so I think that every time you hear the tagline, I want you to think of it as I am a writer and I am part of this.

[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, all you need to do to be a writer is have the intention to write, and hopefully put some words on a page. Right? I think being a published author is a really different thing, and being a writer is a prerequisite, but it's not required. And I think publishing your work and finding that career path is a separate step from being able to call yourself a writer. And I want all of you to really feel empowered to create the stories you want to create, to put words on the page in the way that you want to, and to celebrate that as real, beautiful, difficult creative work.

[Mary Robinette] This is something that we say all the time when we're doing the Writing Excuses cruises, their workshops, that we are all writers. It is just that we are at different points in the path. But we're just peers. And so this podcast is a group of your peers talking to you about the things that we have learned. And hopefully, giving you some of the benefit of our advanced hindsight.

[Howard] One of the most motivating things that a writer ever told me, Ken Rand, who passed away, gosh, 15 years ago, and he said, lots of people will tell you you can't write. Don't let them be able to say that you don't write.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] And I just love that. Yeah. Yeah. If I write, I am a writer.

[DongWon] I love that.


[Mary Robinette] And so what we're going to be talking about today and for the rest of the season are hopefully a bunch of tools, not rules, that will help you. We're specifically, we're talking about this season, a couple of different streams. So we're going to lay out for you what those streams are. And in the second half of this podcast, or of this particular episode, I'm going to talk a little bit about intentions and what it means to set intentions. So, we've got a couple of different streams. We've been thinking about this as deconstructing structure. So we started talking about that last season, and this season really looking at the plot aspects of structure. And how, what all of these mean, and how they work. We're going to talk about that a little bit today. We're also going to be talking about barriers. There's going to be a whole stream of podcast episodes that are coming to you this season that are about barriers to writing, the things that get between you and writing that are not necessarily the story. And then, we're also going to be doing some deep dives on specific structures. We're going to be doing deep dives on a couple of  specific topics... Wildcards. And we're going to be looking at all of these this season. We wanted to kind of give you an overview of what to expect. Does anyone want to explain what we mean by deconstructing structure?

[DongWon] I think the thing that we're really trying to do with this season is think very critically about structure. I think structure's one of the most common things where people get super prescriptive of you have to do it this way. Right? You have to use Save the Cat, you have to use a 3 act structure, a 5 act structure. I think it's the one that people most  reflexively go to, well, stories work like this. All stories do X. Right? And I think I at least, and I think many of us, feel a reflective sort of opposition to that, of this idea of, like, no. Stories can be lots of different things, and can exist in different ways, and are very sensitive to cultural context, to genre, to style of storytelling, medium even, all of these things. And so when we... We're like, okay, let's do a season about structure. Let's talk about structure, it really sort of came down to how do we unpack this? How do we make this feel like something we're comfortable and excited to talk about? And that means deconstructing a little bit. Not in like a postmodernist way. But in a let's break open the tool kit. Let's show what is in the toolbox, what you can use, what you can reach for.

[Mary Robinette] One of the things that I... Made me start thinking about this was there's a cookbook called Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Which is looking at kind of, like, what are some of the core principles. And then I was also thinking about it because with puppetry, I talk about here are the principles, if you have these four principles, you can make any puppet look alive, any inanimate object. And the techniques, the specific mechanics that you use, are going to change depending on what kind of puppet you've picked up. But the core principles, the underlying pieces of it, the underlying structure, if you will, is the same. And I started thinking, does writing have this? And I've been noodling on it a little bit, but I remember this moment... I don't know if you remember this, Erin, but we were all sitting around at one of the recording retreats with these note cards and you said something about writing is a form of jazz. And, like, that jazz has this structure, that music has this structure, but that you can start to play with it. And I thought that that was such an interesting way to think about it.

[Erin] And I think, like, it's funny... I sometimes, like, dislike classical plot structures because I think they can get really shoved down your throat. And, like anything that somebody tells you a thousand times, you're like, Ah hate it. Ah don't like it. But just the way that really great jazz musicians understand classical music, because part of understanding music in general and how it's used in different ways allows you to have the base that you can then use to accept or reject parts of the music that have already come into your life, I think that deconstructing these structures, it's like maybe I still hate the Hero's Journey, but maybe there's one thing in there that I find really helpful that I can put in my own toolbox, and I don't have to take the rest of it. But without breaking it down, there's no way to know, like, what is that kernel of really cool wisdom that I can actually take from something that maybe I don't like the rest of the corn cob.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple topics in here we duck into which are structures that I've historically been opposed to, or not a big fan of. And it was really interesting to be forced to sort of sit down and go through them, and be like, oh, okay, I get why this exists. I get why people use it. It may still not be for me, it may not be what I go to or what I'm interested in seeing more of, but it was... It's useful still to understand why it exists, even if what you then want to do is act in opposition, or break from it, because, again, understanding the tools helps you choose what fits your project and your style and your particular voice.

[Mary Robinette] And I think one of the things that we found as we were talking about this and digging into it was that there were... There were common pieces. That you would see something, it's like, oh, Dark Night of the Soul happened here, but in this other place, what you got is a contrast moment. And you start to realize, oh, Dark Night of the Soul serves as a contrast moment. Like, I started thinking about it, again, going back to food, at one point, chocolate chip cookies didn't exist. And then someone was like, what happens if I put chocolate chips in? And they became kind of ubiquitous. And then someone else was like, but what happens if I put sea salt on it? And the first time you encountered it, it was amazing. And then someone thought, what happens if I put bacon on it? And it was like, oh, okay, well, that's different. And we're excited for a little bit, and then you're like, okay, but actually, that's just different, it's not improving things. And so I think the thing about looking at these structures and looking at the pieces of them is that you can think about doing a recipe or an ingredient swap in something that you're writing, if it doesn't play well for you. You can think about, let me try this weird, out there, avantgard thing. And maybe it's going to be something that's like, yay, novelty! and it will be fun for a moment. But  maybe it'll be something that's like oh, no, this really has no bones. This does a thing. And understanding why it does it is exciting because then you can do things with intentionality.

[Howard] One of the things that I've discovered as we've done a lot of interior home improvements is that there is a specificity of tools beyond just, for example, the Phillips head screwdriver. Okay. Yeah, I've got a Phillips head screwdriver that I just grab when I need to use a Phillips head screwdriver. But in many cases, that screwdriver fits into the screw head and wobbles just a little bit. Which means I'm more likely to...

[DongWon] [garbled] is a terrible design and we shouldn't be using them.

[Howard] Which means I'm more likely to strip the screw if I use...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Howard] That screwdriver on that screw. And so I'll open up the box of bits and find a screw head that exactly fits... A bit that exactly fits the screw head. Nice and snug. And I can plug it into the drill and I can go to town. And...

[Mary Robinette] Whereas, what I am more likely to do is be like, ugh, it's so much trouble. Is there a kitchen knife I can use?

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Yes. And... The point here, though, is that with writing, there are a lot of tools that I know the name of and I kind of think I understand it, but once we start picking these things apart, I realize, oh, wait, if I try to use this tool as described here in this other circumstance, I'm going to strip all of the screws and make a mess. I need a refined version of this. I need a slightly different version of this in order to fit. And I didn't learn that until we began deconstructing things and really looking at what they were made of.

[Mary Robinette] And to your point, there are also times when you don't have access to that finely perfect like... And you're like, what do I actually need to happen here? What is it that I need to have happen here? I need something that will allow me to turn this screw.

[Howard] With a big enough hammer, I can get that screw into the wall, and that's all I've got right now. So, away we go, and I'll fix it in editing.

[Mary Robinette] I once... Sorry, you just made me flashback to this time in theater... I actually am pretty tool savvy, but the kitchen knife thing is when I'm desperate and don't have handy tools. But I remember this time where someone had offered to help me with a thing. And I'm like, great, can you help me with putting this shelf up? And they attempted to drill a hole with the driver bit.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] No screw, no... They just... All they knew was that they were supposed to put a bit into the drill and then put it against the wall and then it would do a thing. And it profoundly does not do that thing. And so this is, I think, sometimes what happens to writers who are early in their career and someone is like, this is the tool you should use.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And doesn't explain why or how it works. And so  that's what we're going to be looking at is the why and the how it works.

[Erin] Yeah. I agree, because what you just said, I have no idea why that is wrong, why that wouldn't work, or even what you just said. I heard driver bit, and that was the end of it for me. And I'm...

[DongWon] All drill bits are pointy. Not all pointy things are drill bits. 

[Chuckles]

[Erin] See. And that broke it down for me in a way that I will now [garbled] for the future. Much like the rest of our year is going to do. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Howard] By the way, a thousand drill bits is about the size of a cat.

[DongWon] I think on that note, we need to take a quick break here. And when we come back, we can talk about the other aspect that we're talking about this season, which is personal processes.


[DongWon] Welcome back. So, we're really excited to talk about all these different tools that are applicable to sort of how you think about structure and what you're bringing to your project. Last season, we talked a lot about personal processes. Right? How we each work. And I think you can see that a lot of the tools that we'll be talking about are applied in different ways there. But the other thing that we wanted to address this season is what are the barriers to writing. What are the things that keep you from getting into a place where you're producing work and producing work you're excited about? So we're really breaking down at least a handful of the things that commonly get in the way of writers, and talking about what are some tools that you can use to address those issues, and how can you apply them to create a process that works for you.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And those are things, everything ranging from some time management stuff to brain stuff to how do you retrain your family to believe that you're a writer. All of these things. It... I'll go ahead and do a spoiler. It's hard.

[DongWon] It's all hard.

[Mary Robinette] It's all hard. So we're going to be talking about all of those things. But at the core of it, the core of... The barriers and the structure, all of it comes down to this underlying thing which is why. Why is the barrier happening? What are you try... Why are you trying to make this decision? Like, which tool is going to work for you depends on what you're trying to do. So, why are you trying to do a thing? So, since we're in the beginning of the year, and the beginning of this season, we also wanted you to think about what your intentions are. What is your intention with your story, what is your intention with your draft? How do you want to fit...

[Howard][garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Into your life? So we want you to think about those intentions as part of thinking about what structure you need, what pieces you need for writing.

[Erin] In some ways, I think about the barrier breaking thing as deconstructing the structure of your own life.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You know what I mean? Like, plots have structure, but so does, like, our lives have... Even the unstructured life has some structure to it. You wake up, you sleep at some point, we hope. And so, I think thinking about what are the structures around us, and how do we think about those as well? It can be so easy to just move through life with so much going on, and never kind of, like, look up and think about what are the habits you're building for yourself, what are the things that you want to change, and how can they be changed? And I think the intention setting is great because it's sort of like what do I wish this was at the end? Like, what is the thing that I want to get to? And then, once you know what your intentions are, sometimes it helps you see what are the barriers between the intention I have in my mind and the actuality of me being able to do it.


[DongWon] And last episode, you heard us talk about us setting some pretty concrete goals for ourselves. And then sort of how did that go, what was that experience like, and things like that. Right? And this is really sort of like what energy do we want to bring to the new year. Right? We are on the cusp of a new year. What are the things that we're hoping to accomplish, at least how we approach, and some of that may be very specific goals, of, like, I want to do XYZ, and some of that may be more general in terms of what brought... What barriers are in front of me and how do I want to address them?

[Erin] It sounds like you want to go first, DongWon?

[DongWon] Yeah. Okay. I can go first. I think the watch word for me this year, as it often is in my life, is balance. Right? I think the thing I'm trying to find is how to balance the number of things that I am trying to do in my time, and without sacrificing quality or efficiency on all those fronts. right? If I have any sin, it is that I am always trying to do too much, I'm trying to do too many things at once. Right? I have many different interests, I have many different things that draw my attention and my enthusiasm, and things like that. Right? So, the first is, I'm trying to bring on some new clients, I'm trying to stay on top of my queries. Right? I'm trying to find a way to make sure that I am getting back to people in a timely way on that front. At the same time that I'm meeting the goals and expectations of my existing clients. Right? And so, the first challenge I have is balancing the bringing in new work and then still executing on the work that I have in front of me. This is a very familiar challenge to any freelancer out there. Right? It's both you need to be doing the rain making side, and also the making sure your crops are harvested properly side. Right? Like, it's both aspects. And a lot of being an agent is managing that rhythm of things. Which has historically been a challenge for me, and I'm sure will continue to be a challenge. So, especially in the first half of this coming year, that's really one thing I have my eye on. I'm also working on a big creative project which I've alluded to a couple times. And so getting... Keeping that on track and working on that in my spare time is important, while meeting all the other goals of my life. Which is maintaining a healthy social life, making sure my home life is good and well ordered, that I'm getting regular exercise and meeting my own fitness goals, [garbled] So all of that is requiring balance, it's requiring perspective. How do I make sure that I'm keeping an eye on all these different things? I have issues with object permanence. Right? If it's not in front of me... sometimes it's like if it's not in front of me, it doesn't exist. Right? And so how do I keep things in my field of vision so that I'm tracking all the things I need to be doing and staying on top of it? And living a well-rounded life that feels satisfying and enriching in all the ways that I want my life to be. So it's kind of a broad answer, but that's what I'm bringing.

[Howard] I mentioned some interior home improvements. One of the things that we put in this last year was a pot rack that hung the pots so that when I am  facing the cooking area, all of the available pots are in my peripheral vision. I bring that up because I didn't expect that to be a big deal, but knowing which pots and pans are not in the dishwasher or not in the sink was huge. Suddenly this whole business of helping object permanence, having things visible as I'm working so that I know what to reach for next... I did not know how big a deal that was until we redesigned the kitchen space, and now I'm never going back. Now, for my own part, for the writing intentions that... The creative intentionality. There are 20 Schlock Mercenary books. And we are getting ready to put number 19 into print. We're finalizing the stuff that goes... The bonus materials that go into that. I would really like to have all 20 done by the end of this year. But at the same time, I'm terrified because once that's done, there are zero excuses... You're out of excuses, Howard, now go write.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] There are no excuses for me not to devote 100% of my energy to something new, to whatever comes next. I feel like I've been putting that off for 5 years now, and I need to stop putting that off. But also, we gotta get book 20 out. and so, I like what you said about balance, because I'm going to be balancing the very mechanical, very flowcharty, spreadsheety process of putting book 20 into print, balancing that against the pure summons of the muse in order to find the thing that I love, the thing that I am going to passionately pour creative energy into in order to pay the bills in 2027. And that's it, that's...

[DongWon][garbled]

[Howard] It's a very small nutshell with a very, very big thing in it.

[DongWon] That's exciting, though.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I'm much like DongWon, in that I tend to pick a word. I have used stable, and we moved that year suddenly without expecting it. So that worked out very well. It was 2024, which was [garbled stable garbled]

[DongWon] Intentions are important, but they encounter reality sometimes.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But... It is so true. But one of the things that I find when I'm sitting down to write, that often if I write at the top of the page, just kind of the shape of my intention, the feeling that I want a reader to have. Sometimes it's a single word, like cozy. But it can serve as a check for me when I'm making decisions. I can come back and I can look at it and go, is this going to be more... Is this going to be cozier? Or is this going to be not cozy? And the same thing was true when I picked stable. It was like when I was making decisions this year, the word that I'm picking is play.

[DongWon] I love that.

[Mary Robinette] I have been working very hard for a very long time. And the world keeps being on fire. And looking for moments when I can play and celebrating those tiny moments is what I'm interested in doing the next year, both with my personal life but also with my writing. I have been playing... As we've been recording episodes, I've been like, I've never actually used the Save the Cat structure. Let me try it. Let me see what it does. And not thinking of it as I have to get this right, but let me play with this. This is a toy, let me just see what it does. And that I'm finding... I'm... I'm looking forward to some joy with that. I will also say that the reason I picked that word was because the speech that I heard the writer/ puppeteer Liz Hara give several years ago at the... Which was about playing and... as an act of joy and defiance. And the idea that in... She writes, she works with the Muppets. The idea that playing and having failure happen as a result of play is a joyful act and that that's where a lot of the best discoveries come from. So that's what I'm planning, is playing for this year. That's my goal, my intention.

[DongWon] I love that. It's so important to make space for that and make space for that joyful exploration and creative practice.

[Erin] Agreed. I think we're out of other people, so...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] [garbled] Now it's your turn.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] You don't get to escape.

[Erin] What are you talking about? There is... I think there's two things. So I have both... I think... I like also having, like, intentions. I will often, like, sum up the previous year with, like, a word. Like, now that it's done, what was that the year of? And then I'll go like, okay, what do I want this to be the year of in response? Which sometimes means, like, picking the same word twice, because it didn't work last time. But what I will say for this upcoming year is I really want to build. I think that is the thing I want to do. I want to build structures, I want to build a life. I'm in a new place. Like, I really want to kind of, like, build things that I care about and figure them out. And some of that is... sounds like work, but I actually think building is fun. I'm trying to take building the way that, like, little kids think about, like, Lego sets or, like, blocks. Where it's like there's so much imagination in building. You're trying to figure out what it is, you're trying different things. You start building this structure, that didn't work, you start over. And so, like, building and iteration is something that I want to do the next year. But also, I have a mantra that I'm using every time I'm trying to make a decision about what to do. And it is to live más. Más is the Spanish word for more. And so if I'm deciding...

[DongWon] Is this living the Taco Bell life? What's happening over there?

[Erin] Sometimes advertising really knows our souls. Have you had your break today?  JK. But... Also a good question to ask yourself. But no, a lot of times, I'm like, look, I just want to... Like if I'm deciding between should I buckle down and do this project or, like, go see a friend, I'm like, live más. Go see the friend. Come back. Then do the work. And so I think the two work well together, because live más is, like, me giving my chaotic impulse-having self freedom to reign and run around, and build is the structure that keeps me coming back, so that when I've finished living más...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And I'm back to living minos... No, that's not good. When I'm back to sort of...

[DongWon] You've lived más and now you need to just live.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Now I need to just live regular. Then I know what I need to do because I built some structures into my life...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That are like, okay, here's what I need to be doing now that I've had my fun. And so it's my way of trying to be basically... Have my cake and eat it too.

[DongWon] I think that what this tells me is that for 2027, our intention episode is only in fast food slogans.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Everyone needs to pick a different fast food slogan, and that's going to be your intention for the year.

[Mary Robinette] Did you know that Taco Bell has an entire magazine, and they take fiction? A friend... I know a writer who has been trying to crack it for like 2 years now. And has not successfully gotten them to buy a story yet.

[DongWon] I want to... I need to know more. I'm Googling this immediately after we're finished recording.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And apparently they pay good money. But anyway...

[Howard] [garbled] the deep ones.

[Mary Robinette] Right. So, that brings us to the end of this episode. And you see the other reason that we decided to move away from our tagline 15 minutes long, because we were increasingly not 15 minutes long. Which is not to say that we're always going to do long episodes. But we decided that the structure of 15 minutes was not serving us. And that we needed to get back into the tools, not rules, and the rule about being 15 minutes didn't serve us. So what we're going to be looking at... Here's your homework. Right?


[Mary Robinette] Your homework is to think about what serves you. What piece of last year do you need to let go of? And what intention do you want moving into the new year? So you're going to just write down, I am letting go of... And then whatever comes after that in that sentence. And, this year I am embracing... And then whatever goes into that blank.


[DongWon] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go  reflect.

 
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Writing Excuses 20.52: 2025 End-of-Year Wrap Up


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-52-2025-end-of-year-wrap-up


[Sorry, no key points, because you really need to read the WHOLE thing! From Dan's change to a guest star, through the predictions of June to the actual achievements of December, just read it and enjoy the holidays!]


[Season 20, Episode 52]


[Howard] In September, 2026, Writing Excuses will host an in-person writing retreat aboard Voyager of the Seas, where attendees can learn their craft and connect with fellow writers for a week along the coasts of Canada and Alaska. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats. But I'd like to tell you about our scholarships. Scholarships are available. Applications are due by December 31st, 2025. Visit www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. But don't delay, the deadline is coming right up. Recipients of these scholarships, the Writer of Color scholarship or the Out of Excuses scholarship for writers with financial need will receive full retreat tuition as well as travel assistance for our 2026 Alaskan cruise. Please, share this post with the writers in your life. The rules and application instructions are posted at www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. And all scholarship applications are due by December 31st of 2025. Our scholarship program has introduced us to some outstanding writers and we're excited to meet this year's recipients.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 52]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] 2025 end-of-year wrap up.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Mary Robinette]And we have come to the end of our 20th season, which is just wild.

[yay!]

[Mary Robinette] We've also come to the end of 2025, and this episode is going to be longer. We're going to do this episode in three parts, because the other thing that we have come to the end of, which we are going to start with, is Dan's time with us as a full-time core host.

[Dan] Yes. I am stepping away from the show. We've been doing this... It's our 20th season, but I believe 17 or 18 years in total since Brandon, Howard, and I started this way back in the day. And I feel like the time has come. I still love the show, and I love all of you, and I'm excited to see it continue. I'm excited to come back for various episodes and events and stuff. But, yeah. Stepping away as a full core host.

[Mary Robinette] And this was... When Dan let us know... I should let you know that we are recording this in June of 2025. And we have known for a couple of months now. And when Dan let us know, I was so upset, I was so sad, that I, like, couldn't actually answer him, and I'm like... Oh, you need to say something right now to this man.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] But, we've... It also means that we've had a lot of time to think and reflect about how we want to proceed and the ways of it. And so rather than just doing an announcement of Dan's leaving, we wanted to say with you...

[Dan] Finally!

[Mary Robinette] Thanks, Dan.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I told you not to talk about those marshmallows ever again.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] But we thought that we would talk to you about why Dan is leaving, especially because we began this year by talking about some of the things that Dan had been facing and that he was [garbled struggling?] with this all year, which was great. But what has changed? And so I'm going to kind of frame this with something, a conversation that I had with my agent, which is that he and I were talking about the fact that I was working very hard all of my career to turn down the gigs I didn't want to do. And he said, well, now you're at a point where you have to make a decision about turning down the gigs you do want to do. And that was a thing that came up when we were talking with Dan.

[Dan] Yeah. That's really where I was this spring. To start the story a little earlier, this is something I've been thinking about for a while, but as we have said ourselves on this show before, when you are in the depths of a bad depressive episode, that's not a good time to make major decisions. That was the very first thing that my therapist told me when I started going to see a therapist. And so we reached a point, and I can't remember if it was two or three years ago, where I told the rest of the cast that I had to step away temporarily, because if I didn't, I would quit. And I didn't want to quit. And that's just because the depression... And at that point, much more so, the anxiety were just too much. Stuff that I love immensely, like recording with this group of people, would give me horrible panic attacks. And we had a recording retreat, and I don't remember if I told you at that retreat in Austin, or if it was later when we got home, that it was just too much for me. And I had to step away and give myself time. And so I was very spotty for a while.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] But I knew I didn't want to make that decision yet. And then earlier this year, in March, I finally found a med schedule that worked for me. The right medicines, the right treatments, the right everything. And I have been feeling fantastic ever since. And that after two or three weeks of that fantastic feeling, I thought, yay, I can come back to the show now, and this will be great. And then I thought, wait a minute. This is the time when I'm supposed to make the major decisions. And I had to think about where I was in my career, what I am looking to do, what kinds of platforms and outlets do I want to focus on? And really, I felt like it was time for me to move on. And the reason I feel like I am able to move on right now is because we've spent these last few years building the show into a new and exciting thing. And I love what it is and it is in very good hands, and I love all of these folks, and so it really felt like I was able to leave it in their capable care, and to move on to a new phase of my career.

[Mary Robinette] And I have to say, for me, because I was... I was not an original host. I came in in season 6. And so the idea of doing the podcast without Dan was scary. Because it... I like talking to you. But I also know that I like... At this point, the new team has jelled, and we... Because of the time you had to take a step back, I knew how we worked as a four-person podcast. And there are times, honestly, when having five people is awkward. That's one of the reasons our episodes tend to run longer. But it is also one of the things that I love about this is that you are leaving at a point where you still love the podcast.

[Dan] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] You aren't leaving at a point... Because it's just become a thing that you can't handle, that you don't like.

[Dan] Yeah. Yeah. Which was important for me.

[DongWon] And we didn't design this season, in terms of curriculum, with this in mind. Right? You told us after we had begun recording episodes for this, and sort of knew what we were up to, but it ended up working out, because we spent a lot of this year talking about our own individual processes, our career development, and some of the different things about how we structure our business and how we structure our lives. And so it's been really useful to sort of be, like, going through that conversation together about, like, oh, here's how I think about process, here's how I think about managing my time, and picking my projects and building my career. And hearing from you sort of where you're at in all these different ways, I can sort of see all the ways in which you continue to grow and push yourself, and figuring out what fits in your life right now is sort of the question that you need to answer, as all writers sort of need to answer, with the things they're doing other than just writing their novels.

[Erin] I just think, like, I will be sad, and I am sad, I should probably be sad right now, but I'm more, like, super psyched and here's why.

[laughter]

[Erin] I can't wait to get rid of you... No!

[go on, get...]

[Erin] No, because like thinking about your episode where you were talking about, between the sort of business episode and the episode about your process, and thinking about like all the things you said about your career in the past...

[yeah]

[Erin] I think one of the things that I know, like, from an outside perspective about depression and anxiety is they keep you in the moment, they keep you dealing with the present moment, and they sometimes steal your ability to look forward and to think about where am I going? Where do I want to go? What is the future that I see? And seeing you talk about here's where I want my career to go, here's what I'm planning for, here's what I'm excited for, makes me so excited for you to have that. Like, and to see you feeling like you're looking forward, and I'm like whatever you're looking at... Like, I just want to be standing, looking at it with you, and, like, cheering you on in whatever form it is. And so I'm, like, so thrilled more than anything else, like, just to, like, be there to be, like, I was at the moment when Dan was like, I'm looking at this next thing and I can be, like...

[yeah]

[Erin] Yay, cheering it on and, like, waving from the...

[yeah]

[Erin] Shore as you're, like, [garbled] ship sails.

[Dan] Well, thank you very much.

[Erin] I don't know...

[Mary Robinette] I would echo that, because I... Like, I had the initial extremely selfish response. But then after that, especially being here at the recording retreat where you were able to share things with us which we can't share with the listeners, it is exciting to see what happens next. Some of which I know specifically, and some things we aren't going to talk about. But the thing about the podcast that I think our listeners don't understand is that it takes a cognitive load.

[yeah]

[Mary Robinette] It's something that we've actually all been talking about, of how to shift the cognitive load of the podcast, because it's not just the recording, but there's also all of the planning of the curriculum, there's meetings about what direction we want to go, what additional business things we want to do. You've heard us talking about the craft book. That's another piece of cognitive load. And so knowing that you're going to free up that space, there's a lot of opportunity there.

[Dan] Yeah, it's exciting. I thought a lot about what will I be sad to leave behind, and what am I excited to move on to. And in some ways, I keep thinking of myself as a grandpa of the show.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Rather than a dad of the show. I am excited that the show will still be there, and then I'll get to play with it sometimes, but then I can give it back to you...

[laughter]

[Dan] And I don't have to change its diapers.

[yeah]

[Howard] When we talked about Charlie Jane Anders book, All the Birds in the Sky, one of the things that I loved about it was the aspect of the magic system where in order for certain spells to work, someone has to give something up. And often they would agree to give something up without realizing that what they were going to give up was precious to them. And I've found several times in my own life, most notably when I moved from record production to cartooning back 8 years before the podcast began, I consciously made the decision to give away all of my recording equipment. Keyboards, tone generators, it was $20,000 worth of equipment at full retail. Gave it away, because I know if I try and do both, I'll fail at both. I need to give up something I love in order to have something that I want to love next. And I get that sense from you. You are giving up something that you love in order to move into something that you are ready to love more.

[Dan] Yeah. And I think that that's pretty much the way I look at it too. One thing I do want to point out... One of the things I got from Writing Excuses that I don't get from some of the other things I'm working on right now is the ability to give back to the writing community. And that is kind of the last thing I was really clinging to. I love being able to give back, to give advice, and to help other aspiring writers. And the rest of the hosts have very graciously offered me the chance to keep doing that. I have been running, at least in part, the scholarship program that we do for our Writing Excuses events and retreats, and I still get to do that. So I will still have a hand in that aspect of the show which is really important to me. So, that's great.

[Mary Robinette] And, also, you are... You're moving back... You're moving into... It's less that you're stepping back from the podcast and more just stepping into a different role. Because you're going to be, like DongWon and Erin were before they became core hosts, they were series regulars. So, like, we already know that you're going to be back next season, and for a very special episode.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] The one where I tried drugs at school?

[laughter]

[Dan] No, it's exactly like that. I keep thinking of, like, Saturday Night Live writers. For so long Colin Joss and Michael Che were the head writers, the co-head writers of the show, and then they stepped back, because they wanted to do something else. They're still on the show, they're still writing skits, but they don't have the same responsibilities anymore.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] So, I'm moving from featured player to guest star, I guess.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Our regular guest star.

[Erin] You will be in the [garbled]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Well, speaking of responsibilities, it is our responsibility to take a little break, and then we will come back and we'll talk about your end-of-the-year wrap up, dear listener.


[Mary Robinette] So, this is... Welcome back... The end of 2025. So we want to talk about kind of the way we feel like the year has ended. What we're going to do is that we are going to record this in two parts. Right now, we are in June of 2025. Specifically, if you want to look at the date, it is June 23rd at 4:00 p.m., Central Time, that we are recording.

[DongWon] We are just past the solstice.

[Mary Robinette] We are just past the solstice. So we're going to record this part about the way we think the year would wind up. Then, at the actual end of the year, we're going to record how the year has actually...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Ended. And part of the reason that we decided to do this is because the US has, as we record this, the US has just bombed Iran. And so it's hard to do a kind of cheery, hello, it's the end of the year...

[DongWon] As someone who lives in Los Angeles, this year has gone very smoothly and predictably so far.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Nothing surprising has happened, nothing alarming has happened. Very normal.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And, so, like, we did one time try to pre-rec... It's like trying to record our end of the year in advance. And then we had to go back and re-record it. But we decided to treat that like a feature and not a bug for this year.

[Howard] Yeah. I think it was just this year that I heard the saying, if you want to make God laugh, tell him all about your plans. And so this is us, testing a joke that's just going to have God in stitches, about how we think 2025 will wrap up for us. And then, in a few months, we'll come back and laugh at ourselves.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And part of the thought process that this is... That this is something that will happen to you over the course of your career. We're talking about big global events right now, but over the course of your career, you heard, when Dan was talking about his writing process, and when we were talking... Or when Dan was talking about the business from the craft book, that sometimes you think you've got a plan and you think you know how it's going to go, and then you have to do a reset. So this is kind of like... This is something that it's worth doing when you're listening to this, to think, okay, well, let me think about how I think my next 6 months are going to go, and then see where I am. So...


[Howard] Can I start?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Please do, Howard.

[Howard] I am working right now on a bonus story for Schlock Mercenary, Book 19, A Function of Firepower. Which we planned to launch a Kickstarter for later this year. When I say later this year, like, somewhere in the August to October time frame. I don't have exact dates. But the plan for my year is finish this bonus story, finish the last of the sketch editions, the sketch card deliverables for the book 18 project. I just got a lot of pictures to draw for people. And once that's done, I... We've got Gen Con that we're going to do in August. And then this whole book launch project, Kickstarter project, which will take us through to the end of the year. And that is how I'm going to be spending probably 60 to 70% of my productive time. And the balance of it, I'm going to spend noodling on maybe something silly, maybe something spooky, I don't know yet, but I'm going to pick and I have several choices that I like.


[Mary Robinette] I'll go next. So, I'll talk about the plans that I know and then the thing that I'm like maybe.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] I'm wrapping up edits on a book that I'm going to be handing to my agent. And so what I'm hoping is that when we record this again in December, that I will be able to say, yes, we've sold that book. My agents sending it out to market. But in... There's also an equal possibility that I'll say, well, it's been sent out, I've gotten a number of rejections, or that I'll say, we haven't heard back from anybody. Like, I don't actually know what that's going to look like. I have a new book that is coming out October... That will have come out October 20th...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] 21st which is a science fiction noir called Saga. Not called Saga. Called Apprehension from Saga. And it's an experiment that they're doing, one of those doubles. And I'm really hoping that people will be excited by it, and that when I come on in December, that everyone, all of you, dear listeners, will have listened to it. But it may also, because it's an experiment, flop. I'm starting drafting a new novel. I'm in the outline phase right now. Again, I hope that by the time we roll around in December, I've actually finished that book. And then, then there's the stuff that I don't know. There's... And I'm going to not go into details about this, but I will say that the Wednesday before we came here, I had a family member enter hospice. But it's also the kind of hospice that could be with us for a while. We're not in crisis yet, we're just getting extra help. So I don't have any idea what the rest of my year is going to look like. And then the world is on fire, and I don't know... Like, my husband and I have been talking about do we need to think about moving out of the country. But we can't... Like, there's a bunch of... There's so many different moving pieces right now. So my own strategy at the moment is just to take things... The old cliche of one day at a time. But it is very much like breaking things down into smaller pieces. What can I do today? To just move forward towards the goals as if I can achieve the goals.

[DongWon] Yeah. For me, I think it's hard to predict my... How are the next 6 months of my life are going to go at any given point in time. But I'm coming out of a period of particular disruption for me. A lot of it brought on to myself by choosing to move across country. But there's just been lots of different things that have managed to disrupt my normal flow of work and my normal process. And so, I'm in a little bit of a mode of rebuilding right now. On the agenting side, really I'm hoping, and this is a cold shot, again, because this is all very, very [garbled] but I'm in a position where I have a little bit more bandwidth then I've had recently. So I'm looking to try and find a couple new people to work with. Take on a couple new clients over the next few months, and would love to see where we're at this fall, if there's something in there that could be placed with a publisher, or at least have the stuff in development. So, expanding my business is one thing I'm really looking at doing. Which is something I haven't done in quite a while. I mean, there's been people I've taken on here and there, when the situation made sense. But I haven't been really actively looking in a minute. So, sort of the back half of this year, being a little bit more focused on starting to see what's out there and sort of see what I'm interested in right now, and trying to find a couple people to work with. So, that's my primary goal. On a personal level, I have a side project, a side creative project that I've been developing for a long time now. It's been in the works for about 2 years. I'm not going to say what it is yet, because I don't think we'll have announced it by the end of the year. We're looking to launch it sometime next year. But a big component of the creative lift is, fingers crossed, if everything goes smoothly, will be happening next month. So that is a thing that is occupying a lot of my mind, is looking at... Heading into that project and doing a lot of the initial wave of that work. And then figuring out, oh, God, what have we done? How do we make this work out?

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] So, on the personal side of my life, this side project is going to encapsulate a lot of my attention and a lot of my focus in terms of creative energy. And then, professionally, continuing to push forward and expand my business a little bit.

[Dan] Awesome. Okay. So I work with Brandon Sanderson, which means that a lot of the projects I'm working on are secret, but it also means that I can't call them secret projects, because that has a very loaded meaning...

[Chuckles]

[Dan] With Brandon's stuff. Because of his giant Kickstarter. And I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression. So I'm going to call them redacted projects.

[laughter]

[Dan] Okay. So, I have redacted project A that... It needs to be finished this summer. If it's not finished by the time we record again, it will be embarrassing and bad for me. Redacted project B, my writing part of it should be done by December. So that should be done as well by the time we record. Redacted project C, if I get a chance to start on it this year, I will be very excited. I don't know if I will. I'm going to go ahead and put a stake in the ground now and say I will start outlining that project before we record again. We'll see if I follow through. Redacted project D is ongoing. I have no idea when my portion of that will be done, but we're working on it. Now, the stuff that I can talk to you about, my own work, we are in the process of finally, years and years later, putting together a print edition of A Night of Blacker Darkness.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, great.

[Dan] Which is my historical vampire comedy. And those should be available soon. I think we're going to make... We're going to get them print on demand sometime this summer, and ebook and such, and then have physical copies that we'll be selling at conventions later in the year, like Nexus and such.

[Howard] By the time this episode airs...

[Mary Robinette] Theoretically.

[Howard] You will have enjoyed the print edition...

[Dan] We certainly hope.

[Howard] Of that. Okay.

[Dan] That's the goal. I've got a YA horror novel that I have been working on for like 6 years. I don't know if I will have time to get to that, because, as I said, there are so many other redacted projects that I'm doing with Brandon. But I would love to be able to get to that one. That one is called The Window That Can Never Be Closed, and it will take more time than I have to finish revisions on it this year. But I want to have started them. So, that's the layout of my next 6 months.

[Erin] Nice. And I will just say that in my spreadsheet, I give all my projects code names.

[Dan] Nice.

[Erin] For two reasons. One, if I ever show anyone the spreadsheet, I'm not breaking NDA, and also so that I can give them silly names.

[laughter]

[Erin] You're saying ABC, and I'm like, what if it was Project Slumgolian...

[laughter]

[Erin] Horatio Alger. Like, it doesn't have to have any reason, just whatever you are looking at that day.

[Mary Robinette] Project Honeysuckle.

[Erin] I cannot remember the other old-timey American...

[Howard] Bamboozle was the one that set us off, as well.

[Dan] Wasn't that Hornswoggle?

[it was Hornswoggle]

[DongWon] We've put in too much time on the Internet before we started to record, and there were many old Americana jokes happening. So...

[Mary Robinette] You can look up honeysuckle on your own.

[Dan] We got a little honey fuggled.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] But I will say that I have several projects going. But I think that the big thing for me is that I'm moving. So I have been in Texas the last 4 years, and in a couple of months, I am moving to the West Coast. And I am just sort of at the beginning of a figure out where I want to live next project. Where I'm staying places three or four months at a time to see what place I want to live, which is a thing you can do when you just have a cat. And so I'm loosely starting on the West Coast and seeing how that goes, and then who knows where I'm going next. Which is really exciting for me, because I think it's sometimes just good to, like, change your context. And that will, like, shift other things that you're doing. I mean, like, there are many reasons to leave Texas. Texas is always Texas-ing on things. But also, I think, for me, a person who grew up in a walk... A really walkable city, New York City and Washington DC, I have missed, in the heat of Texas, being able to, like, walk around. And so I'm trying to find places with a more temperate climate, so that I leave my house and don't become a shut-in workaholic. And so I'm trying to live more centrally in the city and do things that will help me get out of my house and get into the world. And I think that will really help me, like, shake things up personally, if nothing else. And that'll affect all the projects I'm doing, but I think that is the thing that I'm most excited about. The other thing I'm going to put forward is, one is a lie and one is true.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] So the lie is that, like, I will send a newsletter out. I'm not going to do it. But let's say...

[laughter]

[Erin] That I'm going to do it. I might eventually send out one newsletter. And two is that I'd like to get a story sold. So, I want to get a story sold. That I think I can actually do. The newsletter, it's hilarious because every two months, I revise half of the letter to be like, hi, y'all. Coming to you from June. And then I never finish the rest of it. But who knows? Maybe I will surprise myself and in my new context, I will do things that I never thought possible.

[DongWon] I'm tagging on to your newsletter lie. I'm also going to send at least one newsletter...

[laughter]

[DongWon] By the end of the year.

[Mary Robinette] I went to...

[DongWon] I have so many half written drafts.

[Mary Robinette] Like, you're the one who's like everyone should have a newsletter.

[DongWon] I think you should have a newsletter. I never said you have to send it regularly.

[Mary Robinette] And... Yeah.

[Erin] Or at all.

[DongWon] That's absolutely not part of my advice.

[Mary Robinette] I just want our listeners to know that Writing Excuses sends out a newsletter regularly.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] Which often includes updates from these fine people here...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And my newsletter's regular. And do you know how I manage that? I hired people.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Because I also have good intentions about newsletters that will never happen.

[Dan] Yeah. Dawn and I looked at our thing at the beginning of June and realized I hadn't sent a newsletter out since February. So...

[Mary Robinette] That sounds bad.

[Dan] I did send one in June.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Not nearly as bad.

[Erin] Wow, look at you.[garbled]

[DongWon] I'm so excited.

[Howard] February of 2025?

[Dan] Yes.

[Howard] That's...

[Mary Robinette] That's like not late.

[Howard] You're in great shape.

[laughter]

[Dan] Fine.

[Mary Robinette] All right. So. We are going to take a break now. And when we come back after the break, we will have time traveled to December and it will be the actual end of the year.


[Mary Robinette] [largely inaudible] One of my favorite things to do when I'm writing is to talk to subject matter experts to kind of get new ideas, or just to dig into a topic more deeply. So, I was watching MasterClass, and they've got this class by John Douglas called Think Like an FBI Profiler. And just in the first few minutes, when he was talking about being a young field agent, story ideas just like started to unfold in my head. A lot of times, as a new writer, you don't know where to go to get access to subject matter experts, someone who can tell you this kind of story or introduce you to the sort of skills that this Thinking Like an FBI Profiler is introducing me to, and MasterClass offers that. With MasterClass, you get thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules, like, if you're in a hurry. It turns your commute or your workout into a classroom. With audio mode, you can listen to MasterClass lessons anytime, anywhere. Just like you listen to us. Plus, membership comes with bonus class guides and downloadable content to help you get even more out of each lesson. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head off to masterclass.com/excuses for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com/excuses. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses. And then maybe you too can think like an FBI profiler.


[Howard] Hello! We have time traveled the old fashioned way, moving forward in time at the rate of one second per second. You had a 2 minute break, but we had 6 months. It's December of 2025, and we are now recording the final part of our final episode of season 20. In this segment, we're going to check back in with Dan and reflect on how our best laid plans have fared. Speaking of plans, we planned to have Mary Robinette with us for this recording. But she's traveling. Fortunately, she's recorded a nice mini-segment that producer Emma and editor Alex will splice into this episode. So, via Emma and Alex, here is Mary Robinette.


[Mary Robinette] Here we are at the end of 2025, and as you can probably tell, I'm ending the year by getting over a cold. So, I'm going to give you a quick rundown of the things that I mentioned when we recorded before the break. The novel that I said I was wrapping edits on and giving to my agent... Finished those edits. It has not yet sold, it has been shopping around. So, we'll see how that goes. The book tour for Apprehension was actually a lot of fun. I toured with Sam J. Miller. We hit a bunch of cities. Elsie went with me on some of those. People were definitely more excited to see my cat. She didn't go to the actual events, but she was on tour with me, and that actually has been one of the things I did not have on my bingo card at all, was that my cat has gone viral. And I love Elsie, but she is now officially more famous than I am. She has, as we record this, 102,000 followers on Instagram alone, and like 62,000 on Facebook. It is crazy. But it's a fun ride. The novel that I said I was in the process of outlining, I set that aside and I'm working on a novella, actually all about Elsie. Because it feels like a time to take advantage of my cat's virality. So I'm nearly finished with that. I should have that finished in the next day or two. It's only about 3-5,000 words away from the end of that. And then I mentioned a family member was in the hospice. That family member is actually doing much better on hospice. I will tell you, I'll give you the advice that I was given years ago, that if you ever have a doctor that offers hospice, to just say yes immediately. Because it just gets more help, and my family member is actually doing so well on hospice that may graduate from it. Which, on the one hand, yay! On the other hand, it does mean losing some of that additional assistance. But that's basically where I'm at. And, looking forward to the next season.


[Howard] Wow. I really wish I could hear that. I bet it's awesome.

[Dan] Oh. I heard it. It was great.

[Howard] It was awesome?

[Dan] Yeah.

[Howard] It'll provide a brilliant springboard for DongWon, Erin, and I. So, let's do that. I'm going to let DongWon go first.

[DongWon] Thank you. Yeah. I mean, tying right back into what Mary Robinette was saying and just thematically picking up on that, I, before this, we all got a chance to go back and listen to what we actually said 6 months ago. So I got to get back into that, and realize that I had completely forgotten all the goals that I had set for myself. However, in spite of having forgotten it, I remained consistent in that I managed to address most of them, I think. I think the thing...

[Howard] So you forgot you said it, but you did it anyway?

[DongWon] Exactly. So, it must have been honest on some level.

[Howard] Character is who you are when no one's taking notes.

[DongWon] Exactly. So. It's been a very busy back half of the year for me. It's been quite hectic on a number of levels. In terms of the work side, kind of exactly what I'd hoped to do. Took on a couple new clients, which has been very exciting. I haven't sent anything out yet, but those projects are getting prepared to go out early next year. And been able to lay some pre-ground work in terms of talking to some editors, finding some people who are interested. Both these writers are fairly established in different categories. So it's been a really exciting strategic opportunity to figure that out. I also opened to submissions for the first time in a very, very long time. Only in a couple categories, so really just looking for epic fantasy and horror right now. And been getting a ton of queries in that are extraordinarily good. I've requested too many things and have way too much reading right now. But it's fun. It's been really nice to dig into it. And been catching up on some competitive reading, on what's happening out on the market. And just have had a run of like absolute bangers and reading stuff I've been loving, and having a blast. And it's just nice to remember how much I love this genre and how much I love this category, both on the fantasy side and on the horror side. I would love to read some big science fiction next. So I'm on the hunt for one of those. So, yeah, in terms of the work side, it's been going very well, very busy, and kind of filling up my docket for the first half of next year. And then I mentioned I was working on a creative side project. I have continued to jam on that. The big thing I referenced in terms of that is going to be a new podcast. Again, I don't want to talk too much about what it is specifically, yet. But keep an eye on my channel for an announcement sometime in the next couple of months here. But the recording for that went extraordinarily well. Had a great time doing it. It's a very big creative lift. That has been very fun to do. And it's spinning off a side project to the side project, as inevitably happens. So pretty much all of my non-work time has been taken up by those. So, yeah, it's been a very exciting, fulfilling, and fruitful time the past few months. The world continues to be somewhat chaotic, but on a personal level, things are going well.

[Howard] I think it's really cool that you... You... Seriously cool that you managed to forget everything you said you were going to do, but then did it anyway.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Rhat means that the things that you said came from that deep stone part of your soul...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] That is immovable... Unmov... Immovable.

[Dan] I'm in the same boat. I could not remember any of the goals I set, and also completed most of them.

[Howard] Oh. Yeah.

[Dan] And in my case, I think it's that I was aiming really low.

[laughter]

[Dan] So it was just easy.

[Howard] Would you like to tell us about it?

[Dan] Sure. I talked, 5 minutes ago when you heard the other segment, about redacted projects A,B,C, and D. And the good news is A, B, and C are more or less exactly where I expected them to be at this point in the year. Redacted project B, I should have turned in a revision a week and a half ago, and I did not. And that probably won't happen until January, and I have come to peace with that.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] I don't know if my editor has. But. Okay. Redacted project D? I genuinely have no idea what I was talking about. This is the problem...

[DongWon] Those redacted projects. This is the code name project...

[Dan] Yeah.

[Erin] This is why I give them code names, so that theoretically...

[Dan] Yeah.

[Erin] That [garbled]

[DongWon] Do you remember what Hornswoggle was?

[Erin] Always. Probably? [garbled]

[Dan] Yeah. Rohisla. There's several gems. I can't remember how many gems Rohisla had. But... Seven? Whatever. I have no idea what secret project redacted Project 7 may have been. So let's all pretend either I finished it or it didn't matter. Because I know that no one at Dragon Steel was expecting any other project from me, other than the three I'm aware of. So, hooray. I also said that I was going to start revising my horror novel, my YA horror, which I have not done. I might try to do a little of that before the end of the year, just so I can say that I did it. But, no, I haven't had a chance to get to that. But, yeah, other than that, I think the goals have mostly been met. And on top of that, I am doing two... I'm actually doing three gaming retreats next year, one writing retreat, a bunch of other stuff. I'm going to so many cons. I grew tired of traveling back when I was doing Comic Con constantly, and then Covid came along, and I didn't have to do cons anymore. And, next year, I'm doing a bunch of cons, and I'm not entirely happy about it, but that will be my next year.

[DongWon] Yeah, I got tired just hearing all this.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Yes.

[Erin] You all. I was like, ooh, fun, going to cons.

[DongWon] Erin, you have a con endurance that I simply do not. But, anyways.


[Dan] I'm actually going to take this moment to pitch one of my gaming retreats. So, next year, in the summer of 26, first week of July, I am doing a Mistborn RPG week-long event. Where every attendee gets a seat at a five person table with a professional GM, and we'll play through a Mistborn campaign that I am writing along with Lydia Suen who is the lead designer on the Mistborn RPG and Kara... I think Friedman, I don't remember Kara's last name, and I'm sorry. But she's awesome, too. So, anyway, everyone, come to that. It's called Campaign Supernova.

[DongWon] Hell, yes.

[Erin] Nice. I hope there's mist there, just in general. [garbled]

[Dan] That'll be my job as the overseer. Go around to the tables and gently mist them all.

[DongWon] Just use a handheld machine for the whole thing.

[Howard] The new mist bottle RPG.

[Dan] If you can see the other tables, you get your money back.

[Howard] Okay. Can I make Erin go next?

[Erin] Ah, sure. Yeah. I...

[Howard] You've got some exciting news. Right?

[Erin] I...

[Howard] [garbled] like to tell us you're exciting news?

[Erin] Sure. I mean, let's start with what I said I was going to do. My favorite thing about looking back at the transcript... I didn't listen to it, but I looked at it, and I said that some of the things that I was saying were lies, and it was a lie. So I said I'm going to lie and say I'm going to get a newsletter out, and it was just as much a lie as I knew it would be...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] When I said it. So...

[DongWon] Oh, yeah. My newsletter's back! I've been sending newsletters. So...

[Dan] Yeah. I've seen several.

[DongWon] This is me thanking you for sending my newsletter.

[Dan] From you.

[Erin] There you go. And I think when I said I was lying, you were like, I'm going to shame you and put out a newsletter. Or at least that's how it felt.

[DongWon] [garbled] Too.

[Erin] Yeah. Shaming Erin, side quest achieved. Mist now. Feeling misty. So, I did that, and I also moved. So that was a big one. Which is that I moved to the West Coast from Texas. I said I was going to do it, and I did do it. And, this is where I think the second lie comes in, which is the lie I'm always telling myself, which is that the amount of time something takes is somehow proportional to, like, how many syllables it is. Like, I'm like, move. You could say that so fast. So therefore, it's like a really small process. It's only four tiny letters. But it turns out moving is in fact long and takes a lot of time and energy, and I'm still surrounded by boxes and furniture that I need to assemble. And so my thing that I thought would be true, which was finishing a story, is also a lie.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Because of my lie of thinking how quickly I would be able to just do all of the stuff that I was going to do, even though I was taking on this extra work. So what I'm hoping for 2026 is to, like, learn the underlying truth, which is that it's better to actually be as honest as you can be with how much things are going to take. Like, I'm a big fan recently of thinking about systems versus individuals, like, a lot of times we put things on ourselves, we say like, if I was just better and faster and stronger and worked harder, this thing would be done, versus like moving is a systemic thing that is going to change everything around me, and I don't know how it's going to affect me. And, like sometimes you just can't outrun this... You can't outrun the train. And the train is your life. And so trying to figure out sort of what is the train and what's the part that I'm...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Running, like what's my individual effort and what's me actually dealing with the world is something that I'm going to try to figure out in this new location. So I think that's sort of the biggest thing.

[DongWon] As someone...

[Erin] Biggest... Yeah?

[DongWon] As someone who has moved three times in the last 18 months...

[Dan] Oh, wow.

[DongWon] I cannot overstate how disruptive moving is to every part of your life. So I think I had to learn kind of the same lesson too, of just, like, getting hit by three trains in a row. Right?

[Erin] Oh, no.

[DongWon] It just made things very hard to accomplish for a second there. So, all sympathy to you for this period as you're getting back on your feet here.

[Dan] I haven't recorded with you folks since June or July, whenever we did the other one, and I forgot that you all bring such wise nuggets of knowledge. I was just making jokes and telling people to come to my retreat, and here Erin has this valuable lesson for everybody.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] It was dark under the train, I had time to sleep.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Not time to write, but time to think.

[Howard] Those nuggets of wisdom, they're actually railway gravel.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] [garbled] Crushed up wisdom.

[Erin] Also, that kind of goes hard. Crushed up wisdom. That was actually the name of, like, a perfume or a band or... I have no idea what. A strain of some sort of drug?

[Howard] Erin, are you going to tell us about a new thing?

[Dan] You're going to do a line of crushed up wisdom?

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Every meal, I do some crushed up wisdom, and finish my time.

[DongWon] I've got [garbled] for you right here.

[Erin] That while... So I moved randomly, it had nothing to do with anything. But after I moved, because sometimes this is the way the world works, I ended up getting a job that will keep me here on the West Coast, in the Pacific Northwest, for a while, which is that I joined Dungeons and Dragons as a game designer. So I'll be working for Wizards of the Coast. I will take this opportunity to say that absolutely nothing I say reflects on Wizards of the Coast. If they thought it would, they would not have hired me. Please take everything I say... Don't go asking them for crushed up wisdom, they don't have it.

[DongWon] I'm so excited for the 5e module, the Gems of Rohisla...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] That'll come out in 27.

[Erin] How quickly can I get myself fired? Speed run, 2026. But one of the reasons that I'm really excited about this, other than its general excitement, is that it actually consolidates a lot of the work that I was doing for many different people. And I'm hoping, like, gives me time to actually relax a little bit more. Maybe even play some of the games and read some of the books from my backlog, and actually just take it a little easier. And I will say that it's, like, feels weird. It feels weird, and this is my last piece of crushed up wisdom before I run out of my supply. But, like, when you've been running downhill in real life and you hit a straight, it feels like there's all this laid on you. And it's not because you're not running fast, it's just that, like, there's a feeling of going downhill that's a little bit out of control. And when you're back in control, it can feel odd, your body doesn't feel like it normally does running a straight path. And so a lot of what I'm doing now is getting used to what is it like to run a straight path, where I'm not chasing things downhill, and then how do I do that without it feeling like weights, but instead something that I'm in control of and where I can decide where I should go next. So...

[DongWon] I love that. Yeah. I'm really excited for you in this next phase of things.

[Howard] I think that means it's my turn.

[it is]

[Howard] I said that I was going to finish some sketch editions and some sketch cards and a bonus story. And then start work on some spooky stuff. Short version, I am much further behind than I wanted to be. And so the spooky stuff remains purely head canon. But I finished all the sketch editions. I finished all the sketch cards. And I'm still working on the bonus story. I realized that when I'm restricted on page count, and I want to tell a story that has, like, some important things that need to be gotten across, sometimes every panel on the page has to do heavy lifting. And artist Howard is yelling at script writer Howard for teeing this up. Because I did not...

[Dan] Yeah.

[Howard] I did not make my job easy. The big change, I think, during the last 6 months, my former boss's boss's boss, back when I worked at Novell, Eric Schmidt was the CEO. And he went on to be CEO at Google, which was a much better gig for him. He recently said, in an interview, in order to be productive, stop doing things to prevent yourself from being bored. If you've got like a little mobile game that you noodle on or doomsday scrolling or whatever, these... And he was talking about the mindless sorts of things that we will do because we don't like boredom. He said don't do those. Let yourself be bored, so that you can be creative, so that you can be productive. And I took that to heart, and hard quit everything. There were several games that I played regularly, both mobile and PC. And I just stopped. I did say goodbye before I left...

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And explained to people, it's not you, it's me. And it's because I have too much else to do and I need to make the time for it. And, honestly, it's been wonderful. I can't recommend it to everybody, because I need people to read webcomics.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Intentionally cultivating boredom is incredibly powerful, though. I am so...

[Howard] So, so powerful.

[DongWon] It doesn't mean you have to quit everything cold turkey. But, like, just making space in your schedule to sit and be bored, I think can be just so generative.

[Dan] Well, and we learned the lesson on long car trips, road trips, with my kids. We used to try and entertain them and keep them occupied. And it was just a nightmare, they were always impatient. And one year for family vacation, we're just like, you know what? No. There's not going to be any movies in the car, we're not going to hand you tablets, you're just going to be bored. And the road trips have been so wonderful ever since. Because they learned how to entertain themselves.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] It was great. They learned how to think their own thoughts.

[DongWon] Terrible.

[Howard] Yep. Anyway. So, what does my 2027 hold? Well, I guess I gotta finish the bonus story. I gotta finish the stuff that I said I was going to do in 2026. But I'm optimistic. I think it's going to work. I'm not getting younger. This... The whole, oh, if I could only work harder or longer or faster? Yeah, you know what, the days when I worked longer, harder, and faster than I work now are behind me, and I need to admit that. And I have. And I need to come to peace with that. And I haven't. But, give me some time.


[Howard] So, there's our report on how our mid 2025 projections for the rest of our 2025 worked. So I think it's time for us to send you home with homework.

[Dan] Oh, yeah, baby. Here's my homework. In the time since we recorded last, I discovered that there is apparently a Twisted Metal TV show. And I binged both seasons of it. And I adore it. I love it so much. In particular, season 2. That show is able to combine ridiculous comedy with over the top violence with genuinely touching and poignant human emotions in a way that you rarely ever see anywhere. And so my homework is go watch at least some of Twisted Metal. Be forewarned, it swears a lot. There's a lot of gore in it. So maybe you only watch the first little bit, if that's not your cup of tea, then I'm going to recommend... I've recently gotten into interactive fiction, The Book of Hungry Names is absolutely phenomenal. So one of these two things. Go and consume that media and learn what you can from them. Because they are master storytellers at doing very different tightropes of different emotions all at the same time. I love them. Go do that.

[Howard] Oh. One more bit of homework. Your hosts have had many opportunities to thank Dan and to wish him well. We want you to have that same opportunity. We've created a publicly accessible Patreon post, thank you to Dan Wells, for you, our listeners, to share your thoughts. Things you've learned from Dan, appreciation you wish to express, even your favorite stories about Dan... I'm not allowed to call them danecdotes, and so I won't. Go to patreon.com...

[DongWon] [garbled] you said it.

[Howard] And yet I said it. Go to patreon.com/writingexcuses and then look for thank you to Dan Wells.


[Dan] Oh. Now I'm supposed to say you're out of excuses. Now go tell me how awesome I am.

[Chuckles]

 
mbarker: (Burp)
[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 20.51: Howard Tayler's Personal Writing Process 


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-51-howard-taylers-personal-writing-process


Key points: Schlock Mercenary for 20 years. Write dialogue boxes, (print) pencil, and ink! Think about the story and picture it in your imagination, pencil in composition, then ink. Adapt and jettison! Spiders have soup. Rebuild for disability. Satisfaction instead of productivity. Make the process serve you. Index cards to fight brain fog. 


[Season 20, Episode 51]


[Howard] In September, 2026, Writing Excuses will host an in-person writing retreat aboard Voyager of the Seas, where attendees can learn their craft and connect with fellow writers for a week along the coasts of Canada and Alaska. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats. But I'd like to tell you about our scholarships. Scholarships are available. Applications are due by December 31st, 2025. Visit www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. But don't delay, the deadline is coming right up. Recipients of these scholarships, the Writer of Color scholarship or the Out of Excuses scholarship for writers with financial need will receive full retreat tuition as well as travel assistance for our 2026 Alaskan cruise. Please, share this post with the writers in your life. The rules and application instructions are posted at www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. And all scholarship applications are due by December 31st of 2025. Our scholarship program has introduced us to some outstanding writers and we're excited to meet this year's recipients.


[unknown] [Japanese] Lenovo no Christmas sale... [singing Lenovo Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 51]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Howard's personal writing process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I get to drop the word magnum opus when I talk about Schlock Mercenary. Because I made it for... My name's Howard... I made it...

[laughter]

[Howard] For 20 years. I made it for 20 years, and for that whole time, I wrote comics the same way. I... And this process is one which, no lie, every time I've described this to another cartoonist or another comic person, they've looked at me, and then taken a couple of steps back in case whatever that thing I have is contagious, because it was just so weird. What I would do is write in Microsoft Word, except I was writing in landscape mode instead of portrait mode, and I had pre-laid each document with four big text boxes that were empty, that were just panels. And I would grab the corners of them and resize them if need be. And then I had some other little text boxes with the various comic fonts that I was using in them, and I would drag a text box into the panel and begin writing dialogue. In that voice. And when it was done, I would grab another text box or I would duplicate the first one, and do another line of dialogue. And the whole time I'm doing this, I am imagining the faces and the poses and the backgrounds and whatever of what goes in the panels. And so it was a very visually oriented approach to creating a comic strip, to creating a script. I had to have the pictures in my head and I had to have a place on the page where I could imagine them being. The places where the process gets weird is that the output of this was an eight and a half by 14 laser printed sheet that had the panels the size they were going to be, that had the fonts and the text the way it was going to be, and I just penciled and inked right on that, and drew dialogue bubbles around it, and then scanned it and sent it off to the colorist.

[Mary Robinette] Wow, you are crazy.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Yes.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I don't do comics, and that sounds like madness. That's great.

[Mary Robinette] I was an art major in college, and that is whack-a-doo.

[Howard] It is...

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Whack-a-double-doo.

[Mary Robinette] Ooh!

[Howard] It is... And the biggest problem with it, which... It's one of these things where you think I will never need this, I will never need to have my work translated for other languages or anything like that. No. The art and the text and the dialogue bubbles are all in the same layer. There's no translating. If translation won't fit in the bubble I drew, well... It won't fit. But, I work fast. I could script a week of comics in one sitting. I could pencil a week of comics in like 90 minutes. Just plowing through the pencils really fast. And then I got to do the part that I loved, which was turning on some relaxing music and setting the pencils in front of me and inking. So... Was it Kevin Smith... was it Clark's where somebody talks about inkers are just tracing? Oh, I'll ink an outline around your corpse. Whatever. Inking is so relaxing. And it's the point at which... My pencils are loose and terrible. But it's the point at which I look at what I put on the page before and make the final decision about which lines are good. And my whole process centered around these three stages in which, one, I'm really thinking about the story and really picturing what has to happen, and then I'm doing this composition with pencil and trying to figure out how these pictures work, and then, three, I'm relaxing and finishing it. Inking, for me, was the reward. And, yeah, that process was weird, but I did it for 20 years. Every last Schlock Mercenary original is print... Is laser printed with hand ink on it.


[Mary Robinette] One of the things that I'm going to say, that I've also heard you talk about, is that even though your process felt the same, your craftsmanship got significantly better with the course of that. Like, I have seen Season 1 of Schlock, and your art is... Present.

[laughter]

[Howard] The way I described it for science fiction fans...

[ooh]

[Howard] The way I described it for science fiction fans is the only way for my early artwork to suck any harder is for us to raise the ambient atmospheric pressure.

[Mary Robinette] We have had this conversation and it's not... Like, it is doing the job that you needed it to do. But what happens with your later art is that it is... It's not just doing the job that it's supposed to do, it is elevating the story at the same time.

[Howard] I learned a lot over the 20 years. And what's fascinating to me, from where I'm sitting right now, is that for everything I learned about telling a story more effectively, about writing dialogue that more closely fits the voice of a character now that I understand them, about composing panels so that the eye is drawn where the eye needs to be drawn, all of these things that I learned, they fit within the original process. The original process did not change. All that changed was the content that I was putting into it.


[Dan] Well, I wanted to ask if you ever thought about changing that process? Or, I guess a better question is, you clearly didn't change that process. As you became a better artist, as you became a better writer, what was it about that specific part of the process that you felt like, nope, this I really want to keep it the way it is?

[DongWon] I just want to back up a second. Let's start with how did you develop this process? Right? I mean, was this completely sui generis, you just sat down day one to do Schlock and that's how you did it or...

[Howard] There was a page online, no longer available, it was Bill Amend of Foxtrot talking about how he created comics. And he would lay out the panels first, and then he had a ruler lines, and then would hand write where the dialogue went, and then he would draw the characters. And I tried that, before I was actually creating a strip. I tried handwriting, and because I am not a trained artist, I was holding the instrument wrong. I developed hand pain almost immediately. And I realized if I have to hand write the story I want to tell, I'm not going to tell it. I gotta find another way to do this. What if I write the text on a computer? Well, how do I feed this page where I've drawn the... Oh, wait, I can have the computer draw the panels. And that aha! I basically took Bill Amend's process and thought, well, I can just do all that early stuff on the computer, and then draw the pictures. But, to Dan's question, several times I considered changing it. And I flirted briefly with I'm going to put the dialogue in later, or I'm going to pre-lay the dialogue on a template version up here above me, and then draw on all blank panels, and then lay... So that I know where the dialogue's going to fit. And every time I did that, I had panic attacks about this is going to make me less productive, there's going to be a learning curve, and my paycheck now depends on me putting out a comic... Me putting out a comic once a day. I could make...

[DongWon] You couldn't change horses midstream. Yeah.

[Howard] I could... With that process, I think my record was three and a half weeks of comics created in one week. But I needed to be able to do that because...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] Sometimes people get sick.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] People need to take a week off. I... At one point, I had a 70-day buffer, and then I went and drew a deck of Munchkin Starfinder for Steve Jackson Games. And after taking a 3 week Balkan...

[Mary Robinette] Balkan ex... Yes.

[Howard] Cruise...

[laughter]

[Howard] I mean, I was away from home between the cruise and the World Con and Gen Con, I was away from home for a month, and didn't make any comics during that time. Because my process allowed me to work far enough ahead that I could do that. There were also times, Dan, where I looked at upgrading Microsoft Word and realized, oh, wait, wait, wait. If they break the text box feature, I'm a dead man. So I'm going to go over to this other computer and install the new Microsoft Word and see if it will do what I want it to do. And I reached the point where the new version of Microsoft Word no longer did things the way I needed to do them. It started rounding corners of the text boxes...

[oh]

[Howard] And I couldn't find a way to fix that. And so my work computer was then locked to that version of Microsoft Word.

[Mary Robinette] Right. Well, something that I want to flag, because I think it's useful for the listeners, and then we'll go to break, is that the way you started is that you saw someone else's process, and you adapted it for your needs and you jettisoned the pieces that didn't work. So, this is, I think, a really good metaphor for the things that we're talking about for our listeners, is, like, we're describing our process for you. You hear another writer describing their process. It's not the process that makes them, it's the way the process works with your brain, that interface. And jettisoning all the parts that don't work for you, including, like... Including parts of your own process. If you are afraid of upgrading, if that is going to get in your way, you don't have to move up. I know people who still, like... What, WordPro, or some... Like, things that don't... Like, programs that don't exist, that still need floppy disks.

[Howard] I think into the early 2000s, spider Robinson was writing on a Mac Classic in WordPerfect for Macintosh, and it was on a computer that couldn't connect to the internet.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, the point of all this is, as we've been talking, make sure that you are thinking about the pieces that you're like, ooh, that sounds fun and interesting. And now we could probably take a break.

[Howard] Yeah. We're going to go for a break. And when we come back, I'm going to talk about my new process and mention spider.


[Mary Robinette] [largely inaudible] One of my favorite things to do when I'm writing is to talk to subject matter experts to kind of get new ideas, or just to dig into a topic more deeply. So, I was watching MasterClass, and they've got this class by John Douglas called Think Like an FBI Profiler. And just in the first few minutes, when he was talking about being a young field agent, story ideas just like started to unfold in my head. A lot of times, as a new writer, you don't know where to go to get access to subject matter experts, someone who can tell you this kind of story or introduce you to the sort of skills that this Thinking Like an FBI Profiler is introducing me to, and MasterClass offers that. With MasterClass, you get thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules, like, if you're in a hurry. It turns your commute or your workout into a classroom. With audio mode, you can listen to MasterClass lessons anytime, anywhere. Just like you listen to us. Plus, membership comes with bonus class guides and downloadable content to help you get even more out of each lesson. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head off to masterclass.com/excuses for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com/excuses. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses. And then maybe you too can think like an FBI profiler.


[unknown] [Japanese] Lenovo no Christmas sale... [singing Lenovo Lenovo]


[Howard] I have a new process, but first I'm going to tell you about spiders. You know how when you chase a spider around with a broom, he's like really, really fast. This is assuming you're the sort of person who will chase a spider rather than just leave it alone. They're really, really fast until all of a sudden, they're just not. That's because spiders don't have circulatory systems, they have soup. And once their muscles have run out of fuel, they have to wait for brownian motion and osmosis to recharge. And I have, thanks to Long Covid, chronic fatigue, and post-exertion malaise... Which means that when I run out of fuel in my muscles, it takes me forever to recharge. I am like a spider. And so my new process is built around me banking as much energy as possible in case the universe comes after me with a broom, and I need to move quickly. Because I can move quickly. It's just that I will move quickly and then I'm done. Since 2021, when we recognized that I had... I now had a disability. We actually had to acknowledge, yep, Howard now has a disability. I have been rebuilding everything. My whole life. I have a techno-cane that is essentially a walking stick with a little mini arm and a magnet on it that will hold my phone. Because once I taught my stick how to carry my phone, my phone would teach me to always carry my stick. And that sort of mindset, at every turn, I would rebuild pieces of my life in order to be able to get work done. And what I have found lately is that writing actually takes way more energy than I thought it did. I sat down to write... Oh, I'm trying to remember what it was... Oh, it was a... I was going to give a talk in church. And I sat down to write it, and as I started writing, the monitor I wear for my heart rate started sending me alerts, saying you've been in your overexertion zone for 2 minutes, for 4 minutes, for 8 minutes, for 24 minutes. I'm like, what is happening? I am in a zero gravity recliner, just using my brain and my fingertips to make the words. Why is my heart doing this thing? And the answer is, I don't know. I don't need to know, I just need to know that it happens, and I need to be aware of the fact that after this writing session, I'm going to need help feeding myself. And so my new process is a lot like... Yeah, a lot like the old process, except I'm not using Microsoft Word and drawing squares in it. I sit down at a computer to write, but I have to bank my writing time against all of my other activities, because it comes with a cost.


[Dan] So, now that you are done with Schlock, I am interested, in order to continue this discussion, to know what kinds of things you're working on. Are we still talking about cartooning? Are you moving more into prose? What is this a process for?

[Howard] That is a question that I wish I had a definitive answer for two and a half years ago.

[laughter]

[Howard] Because the definitive answer I have today is I wish I had a definitive answer two and a half years ago. The current thing I am working on is a bonus story for Schlock Mercenary. And I will have made mention of this... Maybe I did make mention of this, talking about the process of needing to pull up the panel borders and needing to pull up the scripts and needing to do the pencils and move back and forth between those stages in order to know exactly where the words go. And some of that is probably an outgrowth of the original process, which had the words right on the pages. I have gotten much, much better at comics in that I can look at a page... I can write to the page turn, I can write to the crease. I can draw the eye through the panels the way I want them to be drawn. I'm really quite good at it when I have the time to do all of this. And I'm doing a 13-page bonus story, and it's going to take me 3 months to finish it. Whereas a healthy person who can put in more than 4 hours a day at this would finish an entire 24 page comic book inside of a month. The prose projects... I have several on the back burner. I have lots and lots of voices in my head demanding other stories. And I have a process for tracking that, which is create a document in Scrivener, fill out a few cards really fast, writing down everything that's in my brain, save it, close it, move it out of the way so that I can work on what I have to work on now, because I can't multitask the way I used to be able to. There are lots of other stories I'd like to tell. I love horror. I love it. Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] There's something that you... You were... As you were talking, I was struck by two things that I just kind of want to point out to people. That one of the things that you will have to do over the course of your career is redefine. For whatever reasons that is. Whether it's because, as we heard with Dan, things that you thought were going to take off didn't take off, whether it's depression, whether it's life circumstances, moving across country, whether it's physical disability. But I think that's one of the traps that we all fall into is defining our process by how productive we are. And I think what you were talking about doing is focusing on the satisfaction of the thing that you're good at. And so I think that if you redefine in your own brain how will I be satisfied at the end of this work period...

[DongWon] Yeah. I really love that, because there's a way of thinking about process in the way of, like... I don't know, like product management books that are, like, your workflow has to be X, Y, Z to maximize efficiency at this Factory. But that's not how a creative process works.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's not how making art works. And, at the end of this series about personal writing processes, looking back at what everyone said, but I'm especially noting in yours, Howard, is in rebuilding this process, the question you figured out how to answer is how to make the process serve you, not the other way around.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? You're not trying to fit into a workflow that you designed in there to make the most comics in the smallest amount of time. It's okay, these are my constraints, these are my goals, what can I do to optimize... And it's actually been, like, fascinating watching you do this over the years of, like, finding these technological solutions, physical solutions, process solutions that let you do the thing that you wanted to do. Not the way you used to do it, but it's never the way you used to do it. Every project is new and different.

[Howard] Finding the thing...

[DongWon] Sometimes more radically than others.

[Howard] Finding the thing that is stopping me or slowing me down and going after it aggressively to kill it, destroy it, flatten it, smooth it out, shove it to one side, whatever, because there are things that I want to do. And if there's things that are keeping me from doing them, I'm going to make them go away. There was an episode of... Actually, it was a big portion of the season... Of Altered Carbon, Season 2, where an AI character has been brain damaged and someone tells him, you know what you should do? You should just make notes at the time you think of things, and leave notes for yourself. And the AI ends up with this whole interface in front of him of little note cards and he'll stumble for an idea and then he'll look down and realize, oh, yes, this thing. This is the thing. And I looked at that and had an epiphany, and told Sandra, keep index card stock here and stock here. I need pens in both places. And one of the first things I do in the morning now is I'll pull down an index card, and I'll just start writing a list of the things that I want to do today. And sometimes the list is there in order to do... I suffer from brain fog. It's possible I suffer from brain fog. So that I am carrying that piece of paper with me downstairs, and when I get downstairs, I can look at it and say, oh, that's right. That's why I'm in this room.

[laughter]

[Howard] I do not love that that's the thing that I need, but I am solving the problem.

[DongWon] I think a lot of us need that for a lot of reasons.

[Howard] I am solving the problem in that way. And index cards, I think, brings us around to the homework.

[Mary Robinette] I'm excited to hear the homework.

[Howard] [sigh] okay...

[Dan] Your homework is...

[Howard] Your homework is...

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Howard...

[Howard] Take a stack...

[Dan] You're a spider, I'm a puppy, what are the rest of the hosts?

[laughter]

[oh]

[Howard] Oh, goodness. And what you're going to do is you're going to write a scene about that.


[Howard] No. You're going to write a scene about whatever you want to write a scene about. Take a stack of index cards, and for each beat of dialogue, each thing that would, in your imagination, be one panel of a comic strip, I want you to take an index card, draw a couple of stick figures... Stick figures for the characters who are in the scene, or maybe just smiley faces or frowny faces or angry eye faces or whatever. Doesn't have to be good art. On one side of the index card, you draw that little picture, and on the other side, handwrite the dialogue, maybe even with a little arrow pointing to which person's mouth it comes out of. And then set that card down and write the next bit of dialogue. And treat an entire scene like you are hand creating a comic book. And this is not to create a process for you. This is to break you out of whatever process you're currently using and help you visualize doing things in a completely wrong... Maybe right, but probably completely wrong way. And see if it shakes something useful loose for you.

[Mary Robinette] I don't normally tag on to homework, but I'm going to mention that I was just on a panel with James A. Owen, who illustrates and writes, and he said that he storyboards... Does a storyboard for all of his chapters, and that if he has a chapter or a scene where he cannot think of an interesting image, it is a cue to him that there is a problem with that chapter. And with that... You are out of excuses. Now go draw and write.

 
mbarker: (Burp)
[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 20.50: Dan Wells' Personal Writing Process


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-50-dan-wells-personal-writing-process


Key points: Writing with depression. Break it down into smaller pieces. Take a day off! Spectate, recognize when today is a bad day. Everyone's experience is different. Work with professionals. Classic conditioning works. Shape, capture, and reward behavior. Celebrate your writing! Change your venue. Be an active participant in your mental health work. Avoid the thing, or change the thing?


[Season 20, Episode 50]


[Howard] In September, 2026,  Writing Excuses will host an in-person writing retreat aboard Voyager of the Seas, where attendees can learn their craft and connect with fellow writers for a week along the coasts of Canada and Alaska. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats. But I'd like to tell you about our scholarships. Scholarships are available. Applications are due by December 31st, 2025. Visit www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. But don't delay, the deadline is coming right up. Recipients of these scholarships, the Writer of Color scholarship or the Out of Excuses scholarship for writers with financial need will receive full retreat tuition as well as travel assistance for our 2026 Alaskan cruise. Please, share this post with the writers in your life. The rules and application instructions are posted at www.writingexcuses.com/scholarships. And all scholarship applications are due by December 31st of 2025. Our scholarship program has introduced us to some outstanding writers and we're excited to meet this year's recipients.


[unknown] [Japanese] Lenovo no Christmas sale... [singing Lenovo Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 50]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon]  Dan's personal writing process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm  an awkward pause.

[Chuckles]


[Dan] So. Um. We're going to talk about my writing process today. But what we're really going to talk about today is writing with depression. Because my writing process has changed drastically over the last 5 years. Covid hit, and changed a lot of things for a lot of people. I did not expect that it would have as big of an effect on me, because I work from home anyway. And so I thought lockdown would be easy. What I was not reckoning with at the time were, first of all, highly elevated stress and, second of all, I had six kids at home all day everyday slowly going crazy in the other room, which kind of changed a lot of things for me. And the one-two punch of that, plus my diagnosis of severe depression in 2023, really changed everything, and my writing process is basically something I'm trying to rebuild now. We hit the point in 23 when I realized, oh, I'd better talk to somebody about this. where I would just go into my office and stare at my computer for 8 hours, kind of screaming internally at myself to please, please write something, please. And completely unable to do it. Which turns out is one of the many symptoms of depression. And that inability to function. And so I... And I know this is not something that is unique to me. Many people on our podcasts also write with depression, and many of you listeners out there ask... There's been a massive spike in US diagnoses of depression and anxiety since Covid. It is up now to one in five Americans have some form of depression and/or anxieties. So, that's kind of what I want to talk about today. But first, because I want to know how other people pull this off, because I'm still learning, I want to ask the rest of our podcasters. Because I know this is something, Mary Robinette, that you have gone through a few years earlier than me. And have found some things that help you.

[Mary Robinette] For me, I found that it's breaking it down into smaller pieces. Things that I didn't realize about myself before I got diagnosed... I was 40, and at the time that we're recording this, I'm 56. So, in hindsight, I have done this pattern my entire life. But now I know why and can recognize the downward spiral. And I think that's been the most helpful thing with getting the diagnosis has been recognizing it and that I have... I can activate tools to kind of head it off before that. But what I realized was that when writing is hard, a lot of it is because, at its core, writing is basically a series of decisions and prioritizations, in terms of the mechanics of it. You're chasing an emotion, and all of that. The problem is that when you try to write with depression, nothing is interesting, there's no joy. And so what I learned was that I could... If I had to write, that I could craft my way through it, and that I could do that by breaking it down into smaller things. So, like, sitting down, it's like here's a bullet point list of the objectives that I need to accomplish in this scene. And just chunking through, piece at a time, really, really mechanically. That's the joyless way of writing. The thing that is better and healthier is that I treat it like an emotional injury, and I would not try to power through a physical injury, because I know that there will be consequences for that. And there are consequences when I try to power through an emotional energy... Injury. So unless it is... Unless there is, like, some really compelling reason that I have to write, I find that it is better for me to take a day off as a conscious day off, so that I'm not adding guilt and shame on to it. And I'm like, yep, you are injured right now. You're going to take a break, and you're going to go do something that makes you feel healthier. So to quote my friend, Margaret Dunlap, sometimes that means doing stupid exercise for my stupid mental health.


[Howard] The step that was unspoken there, Mary Robinette, is a step that a lot of people don't even realize it's a step. It's a cognitive behavioral therapy technique that expands out into spectating, but it is the ability to recognize when today is a bad day. It is the ability to look at your emotional state and say... And interrogate the circumstance and determine is today awful because I read about the dumpster fire of the world, or is today awful because something biochemical is wrong? And it is very difficult, at first, to make those sorts of determinations. I think of spectating like there's a guy up in the nosebleed seats who's watching the game, and he's me. I'm also on the playing field, but he's the me who doesn't take the hits and who doesn't have to do any of the exercise and who is just back there spectating, just watching, and will, every so often, tell me, hey, you know what, today is one of those days where you don't go shopping and you don't make big decisions because right now you're not thinking clearly. No, I can't make the decisions for you. That's all I've got. That's all the spectator does is tell me when things are going to be bad. And that's, for me, the first step. Every step thereafter is built out of coping strategies.


[DongWon] Yeah, I mean, in my process episode, we talked a lot about my [informatic] needs and sort of these kinds of things. A lot of that is rooted in stuff I learned from my own journeys through mental health stuff. And I want to flag a thing at the top here about everyone's own experience of depression, anxiety, other mental health issues, other types of neurodivergence, is going to be distinct and unique. I spend too much time on TikTok or whatever and the thing that I see on there is a lot of people saying,, ADHD is like this.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Autism is like this. Depression is like this. Right? And I think there are so many different reasons from biochemical ones, situational ones, trauma-oriented ones, to be in a certain mental health place that some tools will work for you, some tools won't work for you. And that always starts with what Howard is saying in terms of that self-assessment, being able to check in, what am I feeling, where am I at, what do I need right now? And, at the end of the day... Or not at the end of the day, at the start of the day, the thing that I would recommend above everything else is work with professionals. Get a mental health professional, get a therapist, preferably not just like better help or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, an actual licensed therapist that you have a relationship with, that you're talking to on a regular basis, and a psychiatrist if you need one. right? Now. This is difficult to do, insurance in our country is the way it is, mental health support is the way it is, I recognize all the barriers because I've had to claw my way through them myself. Right? But I think a lot of writers have this idea of if I'm unhappy, if I'm miserable, it's going to make me a better writer. My pain and suffering will make me a better writer. And, in my experience, unhappy people, they don't write bad books, unhappy people don't write books. Because they're blocked. Because they're letting their mental health get in the way. Their anxiety's too high, their depression is too deep, they're ADHD is helping,,, keeping them from focusing or whatever it is.

[Mary Robinette] I'm going to correct one thing that you said.

[DongWon] Yeah. Absolutely.

[Mary Robinette] You said they're letting their mental health get in the way.

[DongWon] Correct. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It's not that. Their mental health is getting in the way.

[DongWon] Yes. Yes.

[Mary Robinette] And they're not being able to address it.

[DongWon] 100% agree.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Letting is absolutely the wrong word choice there. But my central point is if you work on your mental health, if you pursue therapy, if you pursue these things, it will make you a better writer, I promise you. Every time I've worked with a writer who has been on that journey, they just get stronger and stronger.


[Mary Robinette] One of the things I was talking with my therapist about, and it... I frequently am talking to my therapist and she'll say a thing and I'm like, hang on, let me write that down, because that's going to be really good for characters.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] But we were talking about... She was asking me how I felt when I went to go sit down to write, and I was like, this sense of avoidance and dread, and she said, "Those are trauma responses. We can do trauma therapy on writing." And what we realized was that I had inadvertently trained myself to dread writing. And some of it was because of circumstances that were not in my control, and some of it was because, as humans, we tend to focus on the negatives, and some of it was practices that I was doing that were like, you have to sit down and you have to write this much, and then if I didn't, I felt like I had failed. So we started doing trauma therapy, and it was kind of astonishing, because... Like, I went from having really a lot of difficulty getting anything done to this period where I wrote every day for like 3 months straight and wanted to. It wasn't the I had a goal for it. But I think that that's one of the things that a lot of people... That, like, I know myself, and I suspect that this happened to you, Dan, when you were talking about screaming at yourself internally, that's months and months of punishing yourself for writing. Or for not writing. So, when we come back from our break, I'm going to briefly describe how you are like a dog.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] I don't think that's a brief conversation.

[laughter]

[Howard] I think it's going to take about 10 words.


[Mary Robinette][largely inaudible] One of my favorite things to do when I'm writing is to talk to subject matter experts to kind of get new ideas, or just to dig into a topic more deeply. So, I was watching MasterClass, and they've got this class by John Douglas called Think Like an FBI Profiler. And just in the first few minutes, when he was talking about being a young field agent, story ideas just like started to unfold in my head. A lot of times, as a new writer, you don't know where to go to get access to subject matter experts, someone who can tell you this kind of story or introduce you to the sort of skills that this Thinking Like an FBI Profiler is introducing me to, and MasterClass offers that. With MasterClass, you get thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules, like, if you're in a hurry. It turns your commute or your workout into a classroom. With audio mode, you can listen to MasterClass lessons anytime, anywhere. Just like you listen to us. Plus, membership comes with bonus class guides and downloadable content to help you get even more out of each lesson. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head off to masterclass.com/excuses for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com/excuses. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. And, yes, I am going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses. And then maybe you too can think like an FBI profiler.


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[Mary Robinette] So, before I said this... Before we took our break, I said that I was going to explain to Dan why he was like a dog. We have this puppy... Guppy is now an adult dog, and so we've been working with a trainer, and one of the things that I've realized, or I keep realizing over and over again, is, like, oh, right. Humans are mammals, and classic conditioning works on us. So a tool... You ask what tools we were using to rebuild. One of the tools that I use is the tool that he uses with Guppy when he's trying to get her to do a thing. He shapes behavior and he captures behavior and he rewards it. So if I sit down to write spontaneously, when I finish, and I feel so silly every time... If you are ever in a coffee shop with me, you will see me do this. But I disguise it as a stretch. Inside, what I am doing is that I'm flinging my arms over my head like an Olympic gymnast and internally I'm going, hahaha, victory! The victory is mine!

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Hahahaha. So that's what's happening. And in a coffee shop, it looks like a very gentle stretch. But my internal landscape is doing that.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] And it is... I found that that, finishing writing and saying out loud, good job! You sat down to write. Good job.

[Howard] Who's a good writer?

[Mary Robinette] Who's a good writer?

[Howard] Who's a good writer?

[Mary Robinette] [garbled] so good. Did you do that? Did you do some words? And I feel silly, but I also feel better. And that it's... I talked in my episode about how building up, like writing 5 minutes... But that's shaping behavior. That's rewiring my brain to remember, oh, this is joyful, I love this.

[Dan] And that's such an important thing to do, because you have spent, at that point, months or years shaping a different behavior. It took me so long to take my own diagnosis seriously.

[Mary Robinette] Yep.

[Dan] Because, like DongWon said, it's different for everybody. I've got a brother with depression, I have three kids with depression, mine didn't look like theirs. So when a doctor told me, I think in 21 or 22, that I had depression... Meaning the year, not my age... I was like, sure I do. Okay. That's fine. I can still function, I can still work. Whatever. And then it took a couple of years before it got bad enough that I had to take it seriously. And at that point, I had already shaped all of these avoidance behaviors and  isolationist behaviors. Which is what all authors do anyway, isolating themselves...

[laughter] 

[Dan] And so, yeah, a lot of what you're talking about with trauma rings very true. I have found, for my current writing process, it works best to get me out of my home office. I've got a great office at home, many of the books that you have read from me and love were all written there. The modern stuff usually isn't. Because I have to go into my Dragonsteel office, or I go to the library, or I just have to get out and move to my kitchen table instead of my desk. Because there are all of these feelings of guilt and trauma and whatever wrapped up in that location. I've also found... I've been working on a project for Dragonsteel for quite a while. Which has itself become a depression and anxiety trigger. And all of these bad feelings are tangled up in it because it's overdue. Because I haven't been doing what I wish I were doing on it. And when I finally decided, you know what, I'm going to back burner this, I'm going to put it on a shelf and work on something new. I was 10 times more productive then, because I was not dealing with that trigger.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. With dogs, going back to mammals again, a lot of times, one of the things when they have a bad response to something and you're trying to desensitize them to it is you remove them from the stimulus completely. And then you give them lots of other activities and give some space in between, and then when you introduce the thing, you reintroduce it slowly and with a lot of treats. Like, for instance, Guppy loves doing agility, and so we have a backyard agility set, and one day she went over the hurdle and at the same time she saw a squirrel, which is very exciting. Squirrels trump everything else. And she knocked the hurdle over and frightened herself. And then didn't want to go near any of the agility equipment. And so I just packed it all away. And then later, we brought it out. Like, waited a week. We brought out one piece and just gave her lots of treats. Didn't try to do anything with the agility set, it was just there. It was just there, and then she... Then we were like, you want to do a hurdle? And she's like, oh, yeah, I love hurdles. But if... I know from experience that if I had tried to push her to go over that hurdle, that would have become more and more and more terrifying.

[Howard] Before the break, I joked that describing Dan... How Dan is like a dog, 10 words. Eight words. Puppy training techniques will work on you.

[Mary Robinette] Yep.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] There you go.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] Um.

[Dan] Darn right. There's your other two.

[Chuckles]


[DongWon] At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I do want to flag again, that there's a lot of different approaches.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Howard] Oh, yeah.

[DongWon] A lot of different techniques. Right? There's a lot of people for whom these techniques are not helpful.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? And so, just like [Flanagan] there's lots of different schools of thought, and a lot of what is, is you... There's a saying that comes from a particular program that's... It only works if you work it. You know what I mean? And I think it's something that I really want to get across here and sort of take the note about, like, letting it be a cautionary note here. But there's also a thing of actively pursuing how you engage with your mental health is really important, I think. I see a thing sometimes where somebody's like oh, I'm in therapy. I get medication. It's all better now and that is... Those are the tools that are helping, but you sort of need the two parts of it, of also the active participation in the process alongside the support from a mental health professional and medication, if that's what you need.

[Mary Robinette] I'm going to support you, and perhaps retract a little bit of my objection to the word let. Because I have a family member who has the same diagnosis that I have, and it presents in very much the same way, depression and ADHD. But I look at it, and I'm like, okay, so that's the way my brain is wired. I don't think of it as a disorder. I mean, depression is annoying and I don't like it, but I think, okay, so that's the way my brain is wired, what are the coping mechanisms and workarounds? And my family member looks at it and says, I can't do those things because of. And I'm like, I want to do those things. How do I do those things, even though I have this thing happening in my brain? So I do think that what you're saying about being an active participant is like... With my mom and Parkinson's, the thing that they found was, again, stupid exercise, that exercise was one of the biggest predictors about how someone's Parkinson's would progress, but that a lot of it was also that it was an indicator of who was being an active participant in the disease instead of letting the disease define them by their couldn't do's.


[Howard] I have a question, Dan. You say you gotta write outside of the office, because the office now has... And I'm paraphrasing... Your office now has baggage.

[Dan] Yeah.

[Howard] If you were to remodel, repaint, refurnish, re-whatever the office, all the way down to the sight lines, desk goes in a different place, eye lines are different, everything. Would that fix it, or is it just the process of walking through the door that...

[Dan] I think that would definitely, I don't know, fix it or change it for the better. Because it would be different. A lot of it is just the memory that comes from sitting down. And a lot of that is just your muscle memory. Because it's... The desk has been in the same place forever, and moving it to a different place would change that. Yeah. So. Did you have a further point to make on that?

[Howard] The question is related to the point which is sometimes the solution... That may not have occurred to you. To me, it feels obvious. The room is broken. Can I change the room to unbreak it? Rather than abandoning  the room all together? And I just bring it up because any time you're running into a case where your process is broken because of a thing, there are two approaches. Approach number one is go around thing. Approach number two is change, modify, morph, break, whatever, the thing.

[Mary Robinette] I have done the changing of the room, but I've also found that if I move from one place to another, like, this is the place that I do my email, and this is the place that I do writing, that my brain makes those connections. Speaking of connections, it is, I think, time for us to connect to homework.

[Dan] Ooh. That is quite a segue.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] No. Listen...

[Dan] I now diagnose you as homework.

[laughter]

[Howard] It's terminal. Sorry.


[Dan] There's two parts to the homework today. Number one is I want you all to just be very kind to yourselves. This is something that I am struggling with. Clearly from this episode, it's something I'm still trying to figure out. And if you are dealing with this, be kind to yourself. If you know someone who's dealing with this, be kind to them. And I guarantee you know someone who's dealing with this, because, like I said, it's one in five Americans deal with this every day. If you don't know who  that is, figure it out.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] And be a better friend. The other point of homework is some actual working homework. We've talked a lot about changing venues. I would like you to try to figure out what your ideal is. This is a process that I went through years ago, and that I'm redoing now that my brain has changed. Figure out what times of day you are most productive. Figure out in what locations or circumstances you are most productive. Often, what these questions come down to is just circadian rhythms and physical environment and all of these other questions. Is there a type of music that you should or shouldn't listen to? Is there something else you need to take care of before you can feel good about yourself writing? Just take a good look at your life and your schedule, and try to identify those moments of when you are best at getting work done. And then try it and see how it feels.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
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Writing Excuses 20.49: Using Tone and Mood 


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-49-using-tone-and-mood


Key points: Plot tells us what happened, structure tells us how it happened, and tone and mood shape the emotional experience of the reader. Tone is the narrator's view of the world, mood is the character's view of the world. Tone is imagery, word choices, sentence structure. Mood is the characters' physical responses, internal reactions, actions they take, and what they pay attention to. Aligned or in conflict? Juxtaposition and contrast! Mood as landscape, and tone is the personal walking there? Control tone through imagery, word choices, and sentence structures. 


[Season 20, Episode 49]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


[unknown] If the Lenovo gaming  computer's on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source lenovo.com. You'll find exclusive deals on the gaming PCs and tablets you want. Like the powerful Legion 7i Gen 10 laptop and the versatile Legion tab. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparisons, and just go directly to the source lenovo.com, where you can unlock exclusive savings. That's lenovo.com. [singing Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode  49]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon]  Using tone and mood.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Mary Robinette] And I have brought this topic to the table because it's a class that I taught for my Patreon because I started thinking about what tone and mood did. And that they are one of the most powerful storytelling tools. But we always talk about structure or character arc or things like that. Here is why I think it's important, and then we're going to... We're going to tell it... We're going to... I will let other people talk at some point.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Yay!

[Mary Robinette] Basically, I think plot tells us what happened, structure tells us how it happened, and tone and mood shape the emotional experience of the reader. And my example of this, I've got two of them for you, is that Wizard of Oz is structurally a heist. So, you have the catalyst, which is the tornado, you have scouting the territory, Welcome to Oz, you have gathering the team, meet the Scarecrow, Tin Man, Cowardly Lion, and The Wizard, you have practice and prep for the heist, which is the Merry Old Land of Oz song, you have committed to the heist, the wizard sends them to get the broom, they're forced to alter the plan, there's flying monkeys. Then the plan comes together, the team rescues Dorothy, everything goes wrong, they get chased by guards and the witch through the castle, they're at an apparent total loss where they're caught, and the scarecrow catches on fire, and then the actual win, which is the witch is melted and we have the true plan revealed, which is that that was the wizard's goal all along. So...

[Howard] More heist movies need flying monkeys.

[Mary Robinette] Right?

[Howard] Wow!

[Mary Robinette] But it doesn't feel like a heist, because tonally, it is a wonder tale and it's a coming-of-age story. And then Pride and Prejudice? Actually, secretly a mystery. You've got the crime, Mr Darcy is an asshole, the investigation, Lizzy investigates and continues to find proof that he's an asshole, and you have the twist, Wickham runs away with Lydia, and the breakthrough, like, what, Darcy saved Lydia from ruin? And then the conclusion, that he's not an asshole and that they're in love. And then you have marriage. So... But, again, it... Tonally, it's a... It's not that. So...

[DongWon] This connects to fundamental genres in certain ways. Okay.


[Mary Robinette] Exactly. This gets into Elemental genres. But I think that tone and mood are things that we can play with. So what I want to do is talk about tone in this first half of the episode, and mood in the second. And my thinking is that tone is about the narrator's view of the world, and that mood is about the character's view of the world. So, I am curious what... Having just spewed at you, here's my thinking, I'm very excited about that idea...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] What do you think about that? And, like, I think there's a number of different ways that we control tone, and so I'm curious what you think, now that I've been like, hello, here's a thing.

[Howard] I am...  One, I'm reluctant to disagree because this is very well thought out, and I love it. But, two,  I think that tone might be... Yeah, might be the structure and so on and so forth, and mood might be a more readerly thing that comes  into the narrative because, in the context of what I bring to sitting down to watch Wizard of Oz, Wizard of Oz doesn't feel like a heist, it feels like a wonder tale. But if I'd never seen, if I didn't have that context, Wizard of Oz might feel like... Might feel more like a heist. And so mood might be more related to the conversation... We talked about this earlier this year... The conversation that your piece is having with other pieces that are similar in the mood that you're shooting for.

[Mary Robinette] I see what you're saying. I think the question is, if we're thinking about this as being an intentional thing that we can control...

[Howard] Yes. And that's why... That's the other reason I'm reluctant to do this. How would I control that? I don't know.

[Mary Robinette] Well, and I think the reason you can... The way you control that is through how the character feels. Like, Dorothy, when she walks into Oz, when she steps out into Oz, her reaction to being in Oz tells us how we should feel about it.

[DongWon] So, that's the mood.

[Mary Robinette] That's the mood.

[DongWon] And the tone is the heist structure of it.  The...

[Mary Robinette] No, the tone... The structure is this thing that's happening. The tone is... So, the tone is the narrator's view of the world, it's the imagery that we use.

[DongWon] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] So it's... In fiction, it's the word choices, it's the sentence structure. And in Wizard of Oz, it's the color palette and things like that.

[Erin] I was going to... Actually say what you would say for mood, and then... I have a theoretical analogy.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, okay. so, for mood, the tools that I think we're using to control things are the characters' physical responses, their internal reactions, the actions that they take and the things they pay attention to.

[DongWon] I see. Okay.

[Erin] The way that I'm thinking about this, of course, is with karaoke.

[Mary Robinette] I love it.

[Erin] So, I'm thinking, like, so the tone... Because to me what you're saying is the tone is the way that... it's how the teller tells the tale. And so when you sing a song, like, you can decide... Like, if you... It could be the weirdest song ever, that's like, who knows, could be the most emo [trumo] song, and if instead of screaming it, you decide to sing it in a sultry jazz voice, like, you have changed the tone of the song. That song's trying to do what it's doing, but you have put your foot down and said, this is the way that I'm going to do it. I say everything is a sultry jazz number, and I don't care what it is. And that's the part of the experience that you're going to  have. And then the mood, to me, is more like the crowd. Like, the mood is like I'm telling the tale this way, and the mood is like looking around and seeing, like, is everyone polka-ing? That's going to give a different mood.

[DongWon] Yeah. Right.


[Erin] Then no matter what. So... And then those two things intersect. And one of the things I think is interesting, number one, is to see does that even work for you as an analogy, and number two, then, like, what happens if the tone and the mood... Like, do they always have to line up? Or can they be in conflict with each other?

[Mary Robinette] They don't [garbled]

[DongWon] I have a great example, I think, of where they diverge. What's fun about this episode is you brought up this idea and we didn't talk about it much offline. So this is sort of a little bit of a class situation...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] For us, and a little bit of, like, let's interrogate the instructor and find out what this means.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] For me, this is let's kick the tires on that. Yes. No, I love it. Okay. So. Mike Flanagan, who's a horror director, made a adaptation of Edgar Allan Poe's short story called The Fall of the House of Usher. The tone of this is this big dark family drama horror story of a man being haunted by the deaths of his children that are happening over the course of weeks, where all of his children die in increasingly horror... Or not increasingly, but all equally horrible ways. The tone of this story is told in this, like, bombastic way, this. like. big grand family drama. And then the experience of watching this show is almost horror comedy. It's campy,  it's over the top, and I think a lot of people reacted badly to the show because of this. But it's a deeply unserious show with a serious core message. But it's a deeply unserious show... You watch these characters die in increasingly ludicrous ways. In ways that feel very Edgar Allan Poe, in terms of being wildly over the top, of watching a guy go insane because he thinks there's a cat in the wall. Right? Like...  and it's... To me, it was an utterly delightful experience. We were like howling and cackling through the whole thing. But it strikes me that there is a real difference between the tone and the mood, where the tone is like reading Edgar Allan Poe poems, like, verbatim as narration, with, like, this somber music behind it, and then you're watching someone run around with a sledgehammer trying to find a cat. And it's, like, fantastic, but there's such a difference between those two experiences. And the... I think the dissonance between them led to so much of the space for Flanagan to say the serious things he wanted to say, while also entertaining the hell out of us watching a bunch of awful, incredibly wealthy people get got in ways that they deserved.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, to Erin's point about can these two... Can these things work in opposition to each other, can you create a juxtaposition and contrast? Yes. Absolutely. One of the things that I was thinking about is that in This is How You Lose the Time War, the tea shop scene, the tone of that is like, look at how lovely Britain is, and how beautiful this is, and the mood of the characters is quite different from that. While the character is there to enjoy that, the character is inhabiting it as a this is quaint, this is... And I'm also having all these big feels about this person that I'm having these battles with. This is a battleground. That's the mood that's going on. One of my other favorite examples is Jane Austen. You do not have to read the entire novel. But if you take a look at Northanger Abbey, chapter 21 and 22, in 20... It's basically the character arrives, and she's in this room, and she's like, oh, no, this room is so Gothic and terrible and it's really frightening and there's mysteries in it. And the author, the tone of it is that Jane Austen, the author's voice, is gently mocking the character, while the character is having genuine feels. And in chapter 22, she wakes up in the morning and discovers that the terrible scratching at the window was actually a beautiful rose bush and that the wardrobe that she thought was locked was actually unlocked, and that she had locked it, and that that was why it was hard to get open. So the tone remains quite consistent, I'm gently mocking you, while the character's mood switches, and so it causes you to experience the same room in two very, very different ways.

[Erin] The thought I'm having is that it seems like mood, in some ways in terms of tools and how you work with it, that mood is a more primal... It seems like it's more of a lizard brain thing. And by that, I mean, things are scary. There are certain things, like when things..., a scary mood plays on things that we are afraid of. It is dark, there is a strange sound. There are a lot of ways to bring different tones, because we can do a lot more [garbled] control over the way our narrator thinks about it and talks about it. But things like hitting a wall with sledgehammers looking for a cat... Like, if you frame that well, like, there's something that we will just think that's funny because there's something funny in the visual that puts us on that kind of level. And so I'm kind of curious, like, how you... Speaking for myself, how to set up that kind of, like, this is the landscape, in some ways? Like, mood is the landscape, and tone is the person walking through the landscape? And so we can control how they see it and what they say about it, if they make fun of it or whatever. But in some ways, the landscape is still there. And if you want to change the mood, you're making broader changes to the landscape [garbled].

[Mary Robinette] That sounds like a great thing for us to talk about when we come back from the break.


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


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[unknown] If a Lenovo computer's on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source Lenovo.com. You'll find exclusive deals on the gaming PCs and tablets you want. Like the powerful Legion 7i gen 10 laptop and the versatile Legion tab. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparisons, and just go directly to the source Lenovo.com, where you can unlock exclusive savings. That's lenovo.com. [singing Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] So I love this idea of thinking about it as a landscape, and I think the reason that I have been thinking about  mood is that... As a thing that is very character centered, is because different people react differently to the same landscape. And so the narrator has set for me, it's like, okay, here's your landscape. I'm going to... maybe I'll set up some fog, and some scary lighting, and this is amazing. And the character is like, I love fog and scary lighting. And then another character's like, no, this is much worse. And that's the... For me, a lot of the... What a character does when we are in tight third person or first person is that they are my viewpoint into the story. They're my way of imagining how I would feel in that, and it does activate my lizard brain. So I think that that's... It's an interesting way to think about it.

[Howard] You bring that up... I went through a haunted house once a couple of decades ago, and the mood that I brought with me was I have heard that they have spent a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of effort and they've got really good... They got a really good team working on this, and it's being hosted at what used to be the actual mental hospital up on the hillside in Utah. And I was giggling, generally joyful, happy the whole time. And somebody does a thing where they pull down a lever and crush a dummy. And something squirted on my face. And I squealed with laughter. And one of the cast members stepped up to me, just right in my ear, like, dude, what's wrong with you?

[laughter]

[DongWon] [garbled we need to?] hire you.

[Howard] Would you like to work here? Because you're frightening all of us. And so, yeah, for me, the tone and the mood are dependent a lot on what I bring into that landscape.


[DongWon] I'd love to turn at this point to talking a little bit about how we can use this as a tool.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? I think understanding... We've gotten to a little point where we kind of understand the terms here. How do you deploy this in your fiction, or how should we think about this as an active use?

[Mary Robinette] Let me actually use an example from an early, early piece of my own writing. This is one of the pieces that made me understand that tone was something that I should be consciously manipulating. So, there's a short story called Cerbo in Vitra ujo, which was the first horror story that I sold. And I'm like, this is... I'm not very deep into my career. I have... I don't have novels out at this point. And... So I'm going to read you the first paragraph or so. For 3 sentences ish. And then I'm going to read you the revision of it after I talked to Ellen Datlow who gave me some lessons about horror. So...


Behind the steady drone of the garden's humidifiers, Greta caught the whoosh snick as the airlock door opened. She kept pruning her Sunset Glory rose bush to give Kai a chance to sneak up on her. He barreled around Noholen's Emperor artichoke without a hint of stealth. Something was wrong. Greta's breath quickened to match his. Kai's dark skin seemed covered by a layer of ash.


So, this is what Ellen said when she read that, was that there was nothing visceral about it. There was nothing about the language... The tone of my language. Right now, I'm setting up something that could just be a meet cute kind of thing. He could be about, like, oh, my goodness, I'm about to propose marriage. Like, anything could be happening right now. So when I revised it, all of the actions are exactly the same. But I've switched my language.


Greta snipped a diseased branch off her Sunset Glory rose bush, like she was a body harvester looking for the perfect part.


So you can see... I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of it. But you can see immediately that the tone switch that that makes. So, for me, when I'm thinking about tone, I'm thinking about the imagery that I use, and that was one of the things that Ellen said, was that I needed... That there needed to be something diseased or something like... Why was there a perfect rose bush? So imagery, the word choices, like body harvester, choosing that, sentence structures, whether you're doing something that's flowing and languid or, like, choppy and breathy.

[Howard] And I think that's where, to my original attempt to argue with you, I think that's where we have control over what the reader brings to the experience. Because when you say body harvester, that's the sort of phrase that is going to resonate with people, whether or not they had experience in sci-fi or horror...

[Mary Robinette] Yep.

[Howard] Really well.

[Mary Robinette] What I'm going to point out is that my character does not know that she's in a horror story, and that's why I think mood is a separate thing.

[DongWon] Yeah. So, if mood is the landscape, as Erin sort of described, I'm seeing tone as the score. Like the movie score that's running underneath it. Right? Like, you have a scene of a group of characters laughing with upbeatness behind it, you are in a comedy, you put a discordant ambient sound underneath it, it is a horror movie now.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? Howard showed me a YouTube video the other day of the trailer for Mad Max, remixed to the Yakety Yak song. And it changed the tone, let's say. While the mood of the characters remained the same because the landscape is the same.


[Erin] This is not important to writing, but this is why I have always wanted... If I were going to have a superpower, for it to be to be able to hear the orchestration of my own life.

[laughter]

[Erin] So that I would know when to be afraid, when to be happy, when I'm like meeting a romance. Because it would come through and let me know that, like, while I may be in this place, something completely different is happening all together.

[DongWon] You know what, Erin, I think you're empowered to choose the music that is behind your own life.

[Erin] I love it. But I would say the other thing that's not to do with my own life is I think we, a lot of times, play around with this with contrast. I asked that question about the contrast and the example that I thought of was, like, your old school Law and Order episodes where, like, someone has been killed in some horrific way, and then Lenny Bristol is like, guess he's not making it home for dinner.

[laughter]

[Erin] You know what I mean? [garbled] like, it cuts because you're like, oh, no, like... And it is a... But it brings you to, like, this is a show that's about procedure and we're kind of having a fun time. It's not a horror.

[yeah]

[Erin] Law and Order  is not a horror show.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] But that would be interesting. And it teaches you a little bit, but also, it makes you laugh.  because the mood sets up one expectation, and the tone comes in contrast to that, and contrast, I've learned from Howard, is one of the tools, I think, that you can use to make humor happen.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Absolutely. And that's... It's also one of the things that you can use to make tension happen, too, which we've been talking about in a lot of other places. That placing two things in contrast to each other. That's why you so often see the, hello, it's a giant battle scene, the [garbled]... Like, the classic one is, it's... What a Wonderful World, and Good Morning, Vietnam. And that's the thing that I think is fun to play with on a conscious level. I think a lot of us do it unconsciously, but I think it is as important to think about  as plot.

[DongWon] Yeah, I totally agree.

[Howard] The tools that I find myself using are white space and sentence length. Where, when I want to make a shift, and I think about that in terms of it, Erin, as you suggested, the score. because the song of, the music of, the poetry of, the prose on the page is so dependent on where the breaths land, that by adding white space, by shortening sentences, I can change the breath of what's happening, and govern the mood in the same way that an orchestral score might.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So I think when you're looking at it, that you kind of have two choices. You can either... When you're combining tone and mood, that you can either have them match, or you can have them in juxtaposition. And when they match, you get what Edgar Allan Poe called unity of affect, where you are reinforcing an underlining this is... Things are really bad or things are good. And in juxtaposition, when they don't match, you can create tension by a contrast between the narration and the character. If the narration is like, oh, there is... Bad stuff is going down, and the character is like, I love this place. You're like, uh-huh, things are... No. It creates that anticipation.

[DongWon] It's funny that you mention that because the Fall of the House of Usher show that I was talking about, there's one moment towards the end when the tone and the mood match, and it is a devastating brutal beat in a show that has been mostly about yucks up until that point, where he just kicks you in the heart. And it's when those align.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's the trick he pulls. It suddenly aligns, and then we slip out of that again for the finale, but it's interesting to point that out. I'm like, oh, that is a good trick to pull.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] So, I have got some homework for you. Your homework is that I just want you to take a mystery structure, and a mystery structure is five parts. You have a crime, an investigation, a twist, a breakthrough, and then the conclusion. I want you to take that structure, and I want you to write something that is not obviously a mystery.


[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
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Writing Excuses 20.48:  Now Go Write -  How to Pitch Your Work

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-48-now-go-write-how-to-pitch--your-work


Key points: How do you, as a writer, talk about your own work in a compelling way? Pitching is a skill, you can train, practice, and get better at it. Be who you are. How does this fill some one's need? Comps and comp titles (like...). Content and presentation. Think about your audience. Conversations, first and foremost. Not distilled plot, but tone, vibe, what you're going to think about. Category, vibe, and why. Comp titles, and Venn diagram overlaps. Back copy: character, conflict, setting, hook. A keyhole peek at your book. 


[Season 20, Episode  48]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 48]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Now Go Write - how to pitch your work.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[DongWon] And this week, we are continuing our series talking about our upcoming craft book, and this is another one of the business topics that we are getting into. I want to talk about one of my very favorite things to talk about, which is pitching. Which is fundamentally just how do you, as a writer, talk about your own work in a compelling way. Right? I think this idea of pitching can feel very stressful to writers for a number of reasons. I think there's a lot of pressure around it because it's an important skill. Right? When we think of pitching, we think of going to... Trying to find a literary agent, trying to find an editor, and writing up the copy for your book, and having your perfect elevator pitch, and all of those things. Right? These are stressful moments, and I'm not denying that, but also, I want everyone to realize (1) what a career skill pitching will be. That it's not just confined to these little moments, that it is something you will continue to return to over and over again as an important skill as you meet readers and try and convince them to buy your books, and as you talk to your publishing team about future books you want to work on. Those are simply the most obvious examples of when you'll be pitching. Before we started recording, Erin and I were chatting about even just going into a freelance job and having to say, yeah, here's the idea I came up with, here's what I want to work on here. And that is also a form of pitching. Right? Once you start to understand the principles of how to pitch, you'll start seeing it in a number of other places and start being able to apply that. So the first lesson I want to get across here is that pitching, like any other thing, is a skill. And because it's a skill, that means you can train it, you can practice it, and you can get better at it. Right now, you're probably pretty bad at it, because everyone is bad at it. It's really hard to do. Right? And right now, you just haven't done it before. It's not a normal way to talk. Sort of. And I'm going to get more into how you can start thinking of it and integrating it into your daily life. But what you're doing is figuring out some specific strategies and some specific processes to start talking about pitching.

[Howard] Um. I'm going to say a thing, and then I'm going to invite you to hear me unsay it. And that is that the skill set for pitching is 99%, it's like coffee coaster Venn diagram overlap, with the skill set for sales.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Howard] If you are a good salesperson, you already know how to pitch, you just need the right content. If sales terrifies you and makes you feel filthy and you don't want to be in sales, you don't even want to think about sales, then I'm now unsaying it.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And you can pretend that pitching is a completely different skill.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Because what you're pitching is something you made, not something someone else made.

[DongWon] Right.

[Howard] And invited you to sell.


[DongWon] Right. But at the end of the day, if you want to make your money from being a writer, you're selling your work. Right? At the end of the day, you are, to some extent, in sales. Because to get paid for your book, you gotta sell a lot of books. Right? So having that core skill of being able to pitch is sort of as a baseline how you're interacting with the world once you've written your thing. Right? So what is a good pitch is where I kind of want to start with. Well, actually, let's back up a second. For each of you, like, what was the place where you guys started when you were on your journey of, like, learning how to pitch your project? Like, that first query letter, that first talking to a friend about your book, what was the thing that you felt like was the first key where you're like, oh, wait, I'm starting to get how I'm supposed to talk about this?

[Howard] WorldCon Denver, I think it was 2007. We were trying to figure out how to hand sell Schlock Mercenary to science fiction fans. And we came up with epic science fiction, four panels at a time. That was the pitch.

[DongWon] Great.

[Howard] It is an epic, and four panels... What does four panels at a time mean? Well, that evokes thoughts of a newspaper comic, which says comedy without necessarily saying comedy out loud. Because declaring that something is funny is inherently unfunny and is a challenge. You're challenging people to believe you when you say it's funny. But if you say four panels at a time, they tell themselves it's funny. And yes, there's this whole strategy that goes into what you say versus the actual message that comes across. We sold so many books at that convention. We ended up printing slicks that said epic science fiction, four panels at a time on them, so that we could talk less and hand people things. And we moved a lot of books.

[DongWon] Well, to unpack why that works. Right? Is you tell people what the thing is very clearly. It's epic science fiction. Here's the category, here's how I think about it. Then you're giving me the thing that gives it texture and makes it interesting, which is a juxtaposition that's unexpected, which is the four panels at a time. I'm not expecting epic science fiction to be broken up that way. And you've structured the whole thing as a joke. And therefore, what you've communicated to me is that this is humor by the form of the pitch itself. Right? So the density of the information in that one sentence's incredibly high, comprehension, very easy. And I think that's one of the things that makes a great pitch, is getting as much information across as possible very quickly, and you're using all the tools in your kit to do it.

[Howard] And just so we're clear, that was the first pitch that really worked.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] That was where we started to see traction. I don't remember how many other pitches we had, how many other conventions I did where the hand selling was just a chore.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] But it was definitely iterative, and I...[Argh] one of those other things I may want to unsay... You don't want to hear that you're going to have to iterate this and work on it until you figure out that it works. But that's what I had to do.

[DongWon] No,  that's my opinion here, is you keep practicing it, you get better at it. Right? Your first pitch is going to suck, and then you try it on somebody and see how they respond, and then you find a better one.


[Erin] Actually, makes me think about karaoke.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] I don't actually think that I'm great at pitching. I just tend to... I have a hard time doing it in the world. But what I've learned about pitching is that, like, being who you are is helpful. Like, in some ways, like, you have to be able to carry off the pitch that you're giving.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You give somebody else this pitch and it will feel, like, weird and wrong and off because it's not you. And I think about when you sing a song that you really like at karaoke, sometimes what will happen is, you'll try something in the moment. You'll be like, oh, I'm going to go up for that note instead of down, or, I'm going to try to, like, add this little flourish, and sometimes it lands and people react to it, and you go, ooh, that was good. And that was something I came up with on my own. I should try that again next time. And, like, over time, you build the best version of the song...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In some ways. You still never know how it will go on the day, but you have a sense of, like, I've tried this and it works for me.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because it comes somewhat organically from how I would do this, but I'm still adjusting to match what my audience is reacting to. Because a pitch only works if it lands, to a certain extent.

[DongWon] And it's still an expression of you. Right? When you're doing karaoke, you're making that song yours in some way, finding some way to add you, but you're doing it in a context where people can still easily understand what's happening and what the name is. It's recognizable. I know that this is science fiction. I know that this is fantasy. But also, this is coming from a person who has a perspective, and that's coming across. If you try to use Howard's pitch of epic fantasy, four panels at a time, it would  fall so flat because the cadence would be wrong, the delivery would be wrong, the type of thing you're doing is wrong. You have to find your own voice in it.


[Mary Robinette] For me, it depends on kind of what we're talking about when we talk about pitching, because I started with pitching puppet shows, and pitching them in person. All cold calls. And so there I was always trying to figure out how does this fill someone's need. And when people ask me which of my books they should read, the first question I ask them is what are you reading now? And then I pick a book that I... That seems most closely aligned with what I'm guessing their taste is. But when I'm doing the novels, like, hello, we're going to send them out to the world, I've found that if I can figure out what a tagline is for it before I start writing the book, that it helps me focus the thing. And I figured that out with Shades of Milk and Honey, which I described as Jane Austen with magic. And it... And every time I needed to make a decision, I would go back to it. It's like, oh, I want an evil overlord, but that's not Jane Austen. So it helped me there. Jane Austen writes Oceans 11 was the one that probably made me... That cemented that...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, this is a very helpful thing to have in the world. The books that I have the hardest time selling and describing are the ones... And, honestly, the one that I have... Had the hardest time writing was Martian Contingency. I did not come up with any kind of tagline to it before I started writing. I love the book. But I have a hard time telling you what it is about. It's like, we're on Mars! [garbled]

[laughter]

[DongWon] Well, this is, I think, a real thing about as you get deeper into the series, the pitch is this is more of the series.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] Right? And I think it makes a lot of sense that, for Martian Contingency, there isn't like a clear  external pitch, because it's not a standalone. Right? It's this is a new book in the series. If you like the series, you're going to like this. The pitch that you have that's really specifically honed is for the series itself. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah, and that is... And that has shifted, also.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because the available comps have shifted.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I was writing it before Apples for All Mankind came out, so I was describing it as Apollo era science fiction with 100% more women and people of color.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And that I... It begins with an asteroid hitting Washington DC in 1952. Which is not a particularly compressed pitch, but it's one of those things that gives people the sense of, oh, it's going to be hard science fiction, and, oh, I like the idea of destroying Washington DC.

[laughter]

[DongWon] And I think that's also an important thing, that a really pithy pitch can be helpful, that one sentence thing. But also, sometimes you're packing so much information into that, that it's hard to parse.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know? And so it's okay for it to breathe a little bit. You can have a little bit longer of a pitch, provided it's still engaging. Provided people are still excited and bought in on it. Then you have that space to talk about it a little bit more. And one thing I want to sort of emphasize is, as we're talking about in all of these, it's an iterative process. You're practicing it, you're trying it out, and you're doing all these different things over time to learn how to get better at it. But...I want to talk a little bit more about what that process looks like and how you actually do that. And we'll do that after the break.


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


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[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[DongWon] Okay. So, before the break, we were talking about, like, how people sort of came to learn how to pitch and a little bit about what that is. I want to start getting more into the nuts and bolts of it now, of how do you actually get good at it. And the  thing I really want to emphasize is we are surrounded by pitches all day long. Every commercial you hear, every movie poster, every book jacket, every... The copy on the back of that book... All of that is trying to convince you to engage with media. Right? You are watching video game trailers, your friends are telling you, hey, you should play this thing. You should go watch this thing. Right? And you are also engaged in this. You're trying to tell your friends about media you consume that you like, of, like, I ate at this restaurant, here's what I like about it. I watched this TV show, here's what I liked about it. Right? That's all pitching. You're already doing this every day to the people around you. All I want you to do is start noticing when you're doing that and noticing when you're consuming it, and start getting intentional about it. Right? Getting a little bit more focused about how do I convince my friend to watch this TV show I love.

[Howard] There are two aspects for me to the pitching skill set. And I just break them out as content and presentation. Content, what are the words that I'm going to say? How do I come up with epic science fiction, four panels at a time? How do I come up with... Is there a formula, a magic? No, there isn't a magic. I do have a formula, but it doesn't always work. And on the other side, how do I bring myself to say that thing in a way that's natural and convincing and conversational if I'm in an environment where that's appropriate versus when an agent or an editor has come up to me and said, pitch me your novel? How do I cold start that?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] I mean, because that's an opportunity that you may get once or twice. And if you're not ready for it, boy, you'll be reliving that moment for your whole life.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And it's... For me, it has always come down to take whatever content I think works, and practice saying those words until I've memorized them, and then just bank it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[DongWon] Well, I think one thing Mary Robinette was saying when you were talking about getting good at this in terms of pitching puppet shows, and when talking to a reader about which book should  he read, is thinking about your audience.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? And remembering that these are conversations first and foremost. Right? So even when an editor is coming to you and is like, pitch me your project, I think it is a conversation that you're trying to get into and making it feel like a personal connection. And what Erin was saying about karaoke, where are you in this, is really, really important for making that really effective as a pitch, and getting them really on board. So, when you're thinking about pitching... That's why I like this model of thinking about, oh, how do you tell your friend about something that you like? And now, you just need to do that for something that you wrote. Which is, I recognize, harder, but still is bringing that same energy to it, that same consideration of who's my audience. Right? What are they excited about? Why would they like this? Am I trying to get them to watch Star Wars? Or watch Andor? Oh, do they like Star Wars? Great, I'm going to go this way. Do they hate Star Wars? Oh, I'm going to be like, oh, you don't need to know a thing about Star Wars to watch Andor. It's about politics and revolution. Right? Like, how you're pitching that thing depends on your audience and knowing that can be really, really helpful to start honing in on how do we put english on that ball.

[Mary Robinette] You just reminded me of something that I was talking to an agent... No, or an editor? I think it was... Anyway, years ago, I didn't have a novel out in the world, and he wanted to know what I was working on, and I was like, oh, you know, this thing, blah blah... And he's like, no, no, no, no. You're telling me the plot.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] I want to know what it's about.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And then he said, Andor, it's about politics and revolution. I'm like, yes. That's often the key is that we try to distill down to plot, but it's really about this is the tone, this is the ride you're going to be on, these are the things you're going to think about.


[DongWon] Yeah. The two... The three things I want to know when I hear a pitch are what  category are we in? Is this a science fiction/fantasy? Is this adult [garbled]? Right? That's like the baseline that I need to know. The second thing I need to know is what's the vibe? Like, what kind of tone are we going for? Is it comedic? Is it super serious? Is it really ethnic? I think getting that. And then the third thing is why did you write this? What's the why of the thing? Why are we talking about this? Why am I spending my time listening to you talk about this? And that has nothing to do with  who your protagonist is, and everything to do with who you are and what you brought to it.


[Dan] The thing that really changed the way I pitch stuff is something Mary Robinette already touched on with Jane Austen, is using comp titles. I remember when I first started pitching I Am Not A Serial Killer, first to agents and editors, and then eventually to audiences when it got published. And I have a pitch. It used to be long and kind of twisty and windy. But I've got it honed pretty much more better now. But my agent... I was with her while she was pitching to someone, and all she said was, it's teenage Dexter in an episode of The X-Files.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Dan] And that changed...

[DongWon] Perfect.

[Dan] The way I think about it. These days, just because time has passed, I usually say, teenage Dexter in an episode of Supernatural. Because more people are likely to have...

[yep]

[Dan] Seen it more recently. But that's one of my favorite games to play now, is how can I find the right things that this person is going to be familiar with that will let them know what is the vibe of this story? What... How does it feel to read this book? And comp titles are a really useful tool for that.

[DongWon] Thank you for the perfect segue, because this is the thing that I also want to talk about in this back half, is the importance of comp titles. Especially when you're talking to Industry professionals, and this is... If you're talking to science fiction/fantasy or publishing professionals, editors and agents, we think in comp titles. because when we are taking a project on... When an  editor's acquiring a book, they have to fill out a thing called a p&l, a  profit and loss statement. When they fill that out, they will say, I think this book will sell X copies. The way they make the argument for why that number of copies is they're saying, it's like these other books. So you've un... At the time of acquisition, when you fill out your p&l, you have to say, this book A is like book B and C. B and C both sold at this level, so reasonably, we can expect that book A will sell at the same level. Do not come to me about the logic of this...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] There are many problems.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And I will say that one of the things about this is that the comp titles that you use in Industry are very...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Different than the ones you can use out of Industry.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, for instance, I am working on a new book now, and I would comp it to you as Becky Chambers'  To Be Taught, If Fortunate meets Ray Nayler's Mountain in the Sea.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But to someone outside of Industry, I would be like, it's when the Vulcans first arrive on Earth. It's optimistic science fiction. But the Vulcans are aquatic.

[DongWon] Exactly. You don't need to be using the strict form of comps in the way that we do in house. Right? But I am telling you that part so you understand why, when you talk to a publisher, they're always thinking in comp titles. Because it's literally baked into how we do our jobs. Right? The entire job, every part of it, comes down to a comp. What does the cover look like, what is the copy like, what is the... What are we editing for? All that is driven by the comps. And so, a couple of things I want to get across here. One is you can be way looser than your Becky Chambers and Ray Nayler comp. Right? Great comp, by the way.

[Mary Robinette] Oh. Yeah.

[DongWon] [garbled]

[laughter]

[DongWon] You can... You don't have to be that specific, because that's like inside baseball stuff. You can be looser in terms of... What Dan was saying is a great one, what your broader one was... The Vulcan one was also a great one. Right? One thing I want to get across, and the first mistake I see people make when they talk about comp titles is that they think it's about all of A and all of B.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] And it's not that. It's a Venn diagram, it's the overlap space, is defining what your book is. So what you want to do when you're picking your comps is pick two things that do overlap with each other in a way that's narrowly defined enough that I have a clear idea of what it is. Right? I think there's this idea of, like, oh, I shouldn't have Star Wars or Game of Thrones in a comp, because they're too big and I'll seem like I'm getting ahead of myself, I'm being cocky. It's like, no, no, no. That's not the issue there at all. The issue there is that every person on the planet has seen Star Wars, so if you say that, and then you say plus B, whatever the B is, is a subset of Star Wars. Right? Because we're also thinking about  audiences. So, the audience of A plus the audience of B, that defined overlap, is what we're looking for. So if your A is so big that anything else you say will just be a subset, it doesn't really add information for us in a useful way.

[Dan] Another really helpful tool that I think comp titles bring is, similar to what Mary Robinette said about  getting your pitch ready before you start writing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] I wrote a cyberpunk series in 2014, and I thought to myself, this is great. I love cyberpunk. There's not much out there right now. So maybe I can get some attention. And if I had taken the time to come up with a pitch beforehand, I would have realized that there is no recognizable comp title for cyberpunk for the majority of my YA audience. What am I possibly going to compare this to? Because the cyberpunk video game hadn't come out yet, all the cyberpunk that I read was 20 something years old. There's a handful of anime titles. But I can't rely on every member of my audience being familiar with Bubblegum Crisis or whatever. And so, that book was insanely hard to pitch to people, especially to a YA audience, because they had zero frame of reference for what cyberpunk was.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] And I think that presages a little bit the fact that that series flopped really hard.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] It can be really hard to be the only one out there. Right? And there's a big conversation around this about what does that mean for marginalized authors, what does that mean for innovation in genre, and... That's a separate conversation that I would love to have at other points. I'm just flagging... I see all the problems with comps as a system. It's deeply flawed. But this is how it works right now. The other thing I want to get across when you're thinking about comps is going back to kind of what we were saying about your sort of more narrative pitch, is it's more important to get across category, vibe, and why than it is plot. right? Where I see people get stuck on comps, they're like, oh, but it's kind of like this plot twist that happens in this movie. And I'm like, that's not what I think of when I think of that movie. What I think of is an overall energy and tone from that movie, and a genre category from that movie. So, when you're thinking about your comps, really think about, yeah, vibe and category and sort of like the why of the story.

[Howard] I mentioned there is no formula. But I have a formula. My back cover copy formula is character, conflict, setting, hook. And it's wildly flexible. If I have 20 characters in the book, I can't tell you about 20 of them. I mean, [garbled] 20 of them. I need to pick an interesting  character. I need to pick an interesting conflict. And I need to say it in a way that illuminates the setting and that sets me up at the end to deliver a hook. And, as formulas go, that's a little bit like the bear soup recipe. Step one, kill a live grizzly bear with your bare hands.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Howard] Step 2, make soup.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] The first part is really difficult. What is a hook? How do I illuminate the setting in 10 words while talking about the conflict? I don't know. You're a writer.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] You're good at that. You'll figure that out.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Because once you have this sort of a framework, and you can come up with your own, that sort of a simple framework... You can write half a dozen  pitches...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] For your work that... And you realize, oh, gosh, I've just put a great big flag on this character's character arc and suddenly the book is more interesting to me.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I have a formula that I use when I'm doing... When I have to summarize a thing for a query. But that is... That kind of pitching is so completely different than the kind of pitching that we're talking about here...

[DongWon] Yeah. I think query pitching is... I think you have, like, a really good structure there. I tend to invert it in terms of starting with the hook, but again, that's like a whole...

[Howard] Well, Yeah.

[DongWon] Separate conversation. And the thing that I want to get to, though, about what you were saying there is, so often when I'm giving critiques on a copy or on a pitch, what I'm saying is do twice as much and cut 30% of the words. Right? It's hard to overstate how efficient you have to be. And to be efficient, what I encourage you all to do is start thinking about what's the minimum thing I need to talk about here. Right? Don't tell me about your whole book. Don't tell me about all your characters. Think about the one thing you want me to walk away from, that I'm going to be like, damn, I need to know more. Right? And so, don't tell me about all your characters, don't tell me about all your world, all those things. Think of it as looking through a keyhole and letting me see one thing about your book. So when you're pitching, I encourage you, as much as you can, let go of plot, let go of the grand scope of the thing, and focus on what is so cool and compelling about the thing that you did. And with that, I think we're going to end it there. We could be talking about this for many hours. It's one of my favorite topics. But...

[Mary Robinette] Fortunately, people can pick up the book and read it in depth.

[DongWon] Exactly.


[DongWon] Okay. So I have a little bit of homework for you. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to write three pitches. two, three sentence things, just real quick elevator pitches for your book. I want you to write three of them that take wildly different approaches. Focus on different aspects, Focus one on sort of the world building, focus one on a character, focus one on a plot hook, whatever it is. Just riff in three different approaches. Don't let them overlap. And then practice them on another willing subject. Find a friend, find a partner, find somebody who's... A writing buddy. And just practice it. Say it out loud for them, and watch them as they hear it. Where do they get interested? Where do they get bored? Where do their eyes slide off? And where are they like, ooh, that seems interesting and exciting? Practice and observation are the things that are going to help you get better at this.


[Mary Robinette] This is a reminder that if you want a copy of Now Go Write, a fast-paced introduction to writing that is like Writing Excuses on paper, you can sign up for our newsletter at writingexcuses.com.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.


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Writing Excuses 20.47: Now Go Write - All the Eggs in All the Baskets 


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-47-now-go-write-all-the-eggs-in-all-the-baskets


Key points: A tale of hubris. Branch out, diversify your income stream. Try new markets and genres. RPGs, video games, TV, tie-ins, what are the options? Turn down gigs you don't want to do. Don't let a single revenue stream dominate your income. Redefine yourself as a writer in general, not just an author or novelist. Be flexible, roll with the hits! Don't forget why you wanted to be a writer in the first place.


[Season 20, Episode  47]


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 47]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Now Go Write - All the Eggs in All the Baskets.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Dan] And this is my episode for our book, Now Go Write. All the Eggs in All the Baskets is a presentation that I do, and now it's a chapter in a book, and now it's an episode. And what this is basically about is the tale of my own hubris. So in 2014, I was on top of the world. I was very successful. I had two successful series, I had a New York Times bestseller. One of my books was being made into a movie. I foolishly assumed that I had made it, and that I would never have to struggle again.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] And it turns out that that's not how it works. So, my next series was a flop, my next standalone was a flop. One of my publishers stopped promoting me entirely. The movie was made and it was very good, but nobody saw it because it got released in like four theaters nationwide. And so the career that I thought was secure had kind of fallen apart overnight. And yet my kids still wanted to eat three times a day, and I still had a mortgage to pay. So I realized that I had kind of foolishly assumed that the level of success I had attained was permanent and that everything would be easy from here on out. And to go back to the episode title, I had put all of my eggs in that one basket of novel writing, and then novel writing kind of dried up for me very quickly. And I had to branch out, and I had to do other things. And so this is the... uh... This is the episode where we tell you about all the other ways to get paid for writing words.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] This is... I'm glad that we're doing this, and that it's in the book, because that's one of the things that I've found as a freelancer that I expect. I'm always diversifying my income stream. But I see people who have a day job who think that they will be able to leave the day job and go write as the only thing that they do, but it's not... It's... It's... They're unprepared, even the ones who are having success are unprepared for the dips and valleys of income streams. And so, yeah, all of the eggs in all of the baskets.

[Dan] Yeah. So my first step in this was to try to figure out what else I could do in the novel writing space. And more or less what that came down to is I had a couple manuscripts, my regular publishers didn't want them, and I decided if I couldn't sell to the markets I was already in that I was going to branch out and try some new markets. And so I took two genres that I'd always wanted to write in before, which were historical and middle grade, and... I guess middle grade isn't a genre so much as a market, but... I figured I would try those. And I wrote one of each. And I said whichever one takes off, we'll take off. The middle grade was a huge, like top three best seller on Audible, and the historical has been read by maybe 15 people.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I was one of the 15 and I really love it.

[Dan] Well, thank you very much. I love it too. But it was clear that I was not finding much success there, so I started writing a lot more middle grade. And that was the first step in kind of clawing my way back up the ladder again. out of that valley of success. And then other than that, a lot of it was just about figuring out, like you said, diversifying income streams. What are some of the ways that I could get paid for words? I started writing for RPG companies, I started writing for video games, I started writing for a TV company... Writing for a TV show. All these different things. Started taking on tie-in work which I had never really done before. So there's a lot of other options. And so rather than just me talk the whole time, what are some other spaces, what are some non-novel places that you all sell words to?

[Mary Robinette] I sometimes sell... I have been fortunate enough... This is not an option that's available to everyone. but, I have been... Sold, like, essays. New York Times, Washington Post. I've been lucky in that regard.

[Dan] That's one I hadn't considered.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing that I do is my Patreon, which again, I'm at a point in my career where I can do that. But even when I was starting out and the Patreon was very small, the... When your income stream is, like, measured in a lot of money coming randomly from different places, if you're getting 50 bucks, $200, 250... That's money you can use.

[Howard] If you can get pizza money three times a month, you've now paid the grocery bill.

[Mary Robinette] But the trick that I have found is to... My thing has always been that I want to be able to turn down the gigs that I don't want to do. And so when I'm setting myself up for something like a Patreon, making sure that it is geared so that it is stuff that I want to do that does not get in... Or does not get in the way of things that I want to do. So, like, my... I have... I enjoy teaching. So teaching one class a month that's... A lot of it is stuff we've talked about on Writing Excuses. But it's something I enjoy doing, it's not a big time commitment. And it's very scalable. And one of the things  I made a mistake early on was doing things that just weren't scalable. Or they got in the way of the creative work I wanted to be doing.


[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, non-fiction can be a great place to start with that. Right? And so whether that's a Patreon, whether that's a newsletter, and then trying to get things placed... I mean, one thing that's generally true, although this has changed a little bit as the Internet continues to evolve, unfortunately. But outside of genre spaces, the pay per word is usually much higher than what we're used to seeing in terms of, like, what people pay for short fiction in the science fiction/fantasy space. So short fiction writing, essays, long form nonfiction, all those can be really useful. Podcasts is a great option, depending on the kind of thing that you're doing.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] My friend Richard had a... Gosh, $300,000 a year job with a Fortune whatever hundred company, and lost it through mergers and acquisitions and whatever else. And found himself at loose ends, and... But he knew somebody at Forbes. And he started writing basically blog posts for  Forbes, and the amount of money they were willing to pay for someone who knows how to write and knows a couple of things about these businesses and happens to have friends all over that he can call... He was suddenly making a living writing five or 600 words a day.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I forgot about that, that I was... There was a point where we were living in New York. We had moved there thinking that Rob would... My husband was an audio engineer and wine maker because those two jobs make sense together. But we thought he would go into doing film and television when we got to New York. And that was when there was a writer's strike, so there was no production work happening at all. So I was supporting us on my puppetry and writing income in Manhattan.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which was a thing that I forgot that one of my income streams was essentially blog posts, I was writing for AMC and they were paying me moneys... Money to do, like, top five fantasy films with dragons. Like, the most granular lists you could possibly develop.

[DongWon] One thing I do want to flag as we're having this conversation is we are also in a moment... Pulling back the curtain a little bit in a necessary way, that we are recording this in summer 2025...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right now. The Internet over the last year and media business in general have been in a period of enormous flux and change. Right? Over the past few years, we've really seen the collapse of the online ad model, which has impacted most every content website across the internet, and we're seeing major websites going down, being acquired, losing audience, and having trouble making ends meet. So we're seeing opportunities to publish those kind of blog posts, those kind of news articles going away. At the same time, what we've seen is an incredible growth in sort of indie options in terms of journalist-led newsletters, subscriber-led podcasts. Right? We're moving away from the big, like, here's io9 where you get all of your science fiction/fantasy news to follow this creator or this small collective of creators, what are that Defector or Chloroform Media or something like that. People that you subscribe to and support directly, and that's where you're getting your content. Right? So we've seen a little bit of the shift away from you can use these big media platforms to build your audience and get paid for that to starting to need to build your own brands online and getting direct access that way. Right? So we're seeing this shift in that marketplace happening right now.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have a question I want to ask you, Dan, but I'm going to ask it after our break.

[Dan] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] So before the...


[Mary Robinette] Besides recording Writing Excuses, I am kind of always trying to level up my game. So I went on Master Class, and I took this class by David Sedaris about storytelling and humor. It was really thought provoking. Like, Howard and I talk about humor all the time on the podcast, but the way David approaches it is so different and also has so many overlaps. He talks about finding your way into the story, how to end with a weight, which was a really interesting thing to think about. Anyway, at Master Class, they have thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. So if you're a Writing Excuses listener, and you like the 15 minutes long situation, Master Class has that. They have plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers... hello, friends... chefs, and like a ton of other things. So with Master Class, you can learn from the best to become your best. That sounds hokey, but honestly, I really enjoy taking classes through there. It is one of those places where you get access, and it has this very intimate quality to it. With the David Sedaris class, in particular, I was trying to figure out  how to work some humor into a short story that was...  around some stuff with my mom, honestly. And listening to him talk about that through that class was just very helpful at getting some new angles to think about it. New ways to be a little more honest with my writing. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/excuses. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/excuses. I'm going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses.


[Howard] The holidays are almost here, and if you still have names on your list, don't panic. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress-free and joyful, with thousands of exclusive, one of a kind gifts that tell the recipient you really were thinking of them. Uncommon Goods looks for high-quality products that are unique and often handmade or made in the United States. Many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses. I love the shop by feature. I tried shop by interests, selected gardening, and immediately found dozens of perfect gifts, including a cute, slightly spooky, self-watering system that looks like a little IV bag for your potted plant. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/writingexcuses. That's uncommongoods.com/writingexcuses for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods, we're all out of the ordinary.


[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] Break, DongWon was talking about how the market has shifted a lot. I am curious. Do you think, if you had to make those decisions now about trying Ghost... It was Ghost Station?

[Dan] Ghost Station.

[Mary Robinette] Ghost Station...

[Dan] And Zero G.

[Mary Robinette] Or Zero G. When you were trying to do that, do you think that you would do the same strategy or do you think that you would do some indie publishing?

[Dan] Were I to do it today... Honestly, I would probably not do either one. Because the next thing I was going to talk about that we... Is I became a professional game master. Which is not writing, but it is still storytelling. And I supported my family pretty much solely on that for 2 years. And I gave that up basically when I started working with Brandon's company. But were I back in the situation where I was looking for work again, I would absolutely go back to doing that.

[Mary Robinette] Okay.

[Dan] I have become more amenable to publishing my own stuff over the years. I self-pubbed Ghost Station in print, and Zero G in print. So, I don't think I'm very good at marketing myself as an indie author, is what I have discovered.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] And when you are indie, that's like 60% of your job is self-promotion. And that's not a skill I have developed yet. Although, clearly one I would work on developing if I didn't have a real job now.

[Chuckles]


[Howard] Clear back in... Clear back in 2006, I was at Emerald City Comic Con and there was a panel of webcartoonists including the penny arcade guy and Robert Khoo, who two years previously had basically come up to them and said, "You're not monetizing yourselves well. I can do it. I'm worth $90,000 a year, but I'll work for you for free for a year, and at the end of that year, if you can't pay my salary, it's because I've failed and you won't need to and I'll quit." Penny Arcade went on to launch the Penny Arcade Expo. Which is one of the biggest entertainment Expos...

[Dan] Right now, I think it's two or three of the biggest entertainment Expos.

[Howard] In the world. Exactly. Yeah. It's huge. And this was all Robert Khoo. And even just two years into his run with them, we were hanging on his every word in that panel. And one of the things that he said was never let  any single revenue channel account for more than 40% of what you make. And I hate advice that begins with never, and so turning it on its head, what I would offer is, strive to ensure that you have enough revenue streams that if you lose one of them, you're not losing half of your money.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] And I thought in the early days... Early days. Through 2012, 2014, with Schlock Mercenary, I thought I had accomplished that, because we had ad revenue and we had another kind of ad revenue and another kind of ad revenue, and we had books, and we had merchandise. And all of it was pinned to Schlock Mercenary.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] Well, Schlock Mercenary has now finished its 20-year run, and we're still making money on it. In fact, making most of our money on it. But I'm in a situation very similar to yours, in which, gee,  I thought I had my eggs in a bunch of different baskets. But all of the baskets were in the back of the same truck.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] But what are the other things that... The other lessons that you're kind of wanting us to know that you put into the...

[Dan] Yes. So, the first main lesson is what Howard just articulated. Make sure that you have lots of different revenue streams, that you don't have a majority of it all tied up in one thing. The other one is, I think, more psychological. You have to change the way you think about yourself and the way you think about your career. And this was difficult for me, because I had always, since second grade when I told my parents I was going to write books, I had always thought of myself as an author, I'd always thought of myself as a novelist. And it felt like selling out in a way to start doing other things that were not that. And I really had to redefine myself not as an author exclusively, but as a writer in general. Someone who can write these essays or these nonfiction things or go to RPG companies and video game companies and write for them. Writing tie-in fiction was a very selfish hurdle to get over, because I wanted to write my ideas, I don't want to write your ideas. But if you are going to make a living in this industry, that's a lot of what most professional authors, I think, need to do, to branch out and write words for other people in addition to writing for themselves.

[Erin] Yeah. I think this is something that I struggle with a lot, as somebody who also writes a lot for a lot of different types of people, is that there's  sometimes, I think, a perspective in the industry that, like, certain types of writing don't count as writing. Like, somehow that's not really writing. I remember being on a panel with some folks talking about, like, making money as a writer, and they were all novelists. And so it was basically, like, making money as a novelist was the true... So I was like I'm... All I do is write or teach writing. Like, that is my entire career is writing. But I felt like people were like, well, yeah, but like none of that's from novel writing. And I'm like, that is true. I don't write any novels. But in some ways, I'm like, that's cool. It means I've managed to, while avoiding novel... If I wrote a novel, too, I'd just be rich. No.

[laughter]

[Erin] Not true. But, like, I think it is... There's so much like what is the self... Like, what is the image of what it means to be a writer? And I think, like, divorcing yourself from that is always helpful. Because there are a lot of things that we think of that are being a writer that are not great. That are... That can be harmful. I remember a friend once saying... This is a very weird pivot... That she drank more because she thought that, like, writers would, like, end every day with, like... I don't know, like a cup of whiskey and writing. And then she was like, why am I drinking so much? It's because I came up with this idea...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] When I was 10, and now I have to, like, bury that idea because, like, my liver would appreciate it. And so I think that kind of thing, like, stepping away from that, because at the end of the day, like, you're the only one you have to live with. You know what I mean? Like, you have to pay your bills and the people who may or may not think X about your career are not going to be there with your landlord, like, or your mortgage company.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] Yeah. And the big kind of click over for me was when I stopped thinking of all of these other  writing projects and all of this freelance work as slumming...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] As something I was forced to do and started thinking of it as something that was great, something that was expanding my horizons and my abilities. Today I work as the vice president of Dragon Steel with Brandon Sanderson, who's one of the biggest fantasy authors in the world. People all the time ask how you can get that job. And it's because of this. It's because he came to me, not because I've known him for a long time, but because I had a ton of experience in a ton of different areas that he doesn't have. And he's like, well, we eventually want to do TV shows of the Cosmere stuff. Well, I've worked in TV. We want to make role playing games. I've worked in role-playing games. Every aspect of writing and the writing industry, I have dipped my toe into, which made me a really appealing candidate for this huge entertainment company.

[Howard] You've written ad copy.

[Dan] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. When I did the collaboration with him, he came to me because I had audiobook experience and he did not. There's a thing that Jim Henson says, or said, which is the secret to his success was to hire people who are better than him and let them do their job.


[DongWon] I think one thing that's... I think as we're talking through all of this, when I think about a  writer's career, I think one thing that's really, really important is the writers who make it long-term have a certain kind of flexibility, a certain willingness to roll with the hits. I don't care who you are, your career's not going to go as smoothly as you thought it was going to be. Right? And I don't care how much success you've achieved, you're still going to be hitting roadblocks, you're still going to be running into things that are challenges or frustrating. One book's not going to work as well, or TV deals are going to fall through or whatever it is. Right? Nice problems to have, but those are still problems. Right? So whatever it is, I think a writer's ability to succeed as a published author in the publishing industry, as a professional writer in the world, often comes from your ability to roll with the hits. Right? And then to keep going. The good news is no one gets to take writing away from you as a job. That is a thing that you can always be doing. What that comes down to. though, is how flexible can you be about how you see that job and what opportunities are you willing to pursue to keep furthering that? Right? And so, all of that said, though, I do want to put one note in here about don't forget also why you wanted to be a writer in the first place. Right? And even as you're pursuing these other projects, defend the time that you need to work on the projects that are near and dear to your heart, that are important to how you see yourself as a writer. Right? And so, yes, don't be drinking whiskey every night...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Let go of, like... Shed the parts of, like, this dream of being a writer that don't serve you, but also don't forget the core of it, of, like, why you're pursuing this art in the first place. And then figure out, okay, I need this amount of time to do that, I can spend this other time writing, pursuing these other things. Doing comics, doing games, writing for TV, whatever it is.

[Erin] I just want to say one quick thing, which is that I think part of what that does is open you up to Kismet. Because I think that...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] Sometimes you forget some of the things that you used to write or some of the things you used to do. Like, I've taken work doing script writing, and when I was in college, I wanted to write for soap operas. Like, because I love them as an art form. And so, like, I wanted to be a script writer, but I forgot. Like, sometimes you get really focused on one particular type of writing because it's the type you're doing. And you forget that, like, each project to me is. like, what can I learn from this? If I don't think I can take something interesting away from it... And sometimes it's like I'm interested in still feeding myself. But a lot of times, it's what can I take that's inter... Like, that's interesting that I can learn, and I will sometimes be surprised like you were saying, Dan, that, like, later somebody will look at you having done something, like this is really valuable experience in a way that you could never have anticipated when you did it. But the thing that you learned still stays with you and then you can end up using it in the world once you're out there doing other projects.

[Dan] Yeah. I know we're going kind of long. I want to make one final point before the homework. As Howard mentioned, I've written a lot of ad copy. Before I broke in as an author, I spent 8 years in advertising and marketing. And so I freelanced as a website writer. It can still take a long time to break in. Like, some of what we're talking about sounds very pie in the sky, like, I didn't have a career, so I started writing for TV. Like, that's... It's not that easy. You have to put in the work, and a lot of your early writing might be really boring stuff that you don't love. But stick with it. If this is what you really want to do, doing these kinds of add jobs and marketing jobs and website jobs can be a good way to get your foot in the door.


[Dan] Anyway. Here's our homework. I want you to try writing in a genre or a format that you've never tried before. If you have always been writing novels or short stories, kind of classic prose fiction, branch out and try something else. Write something in a script format. Write an episode of a TV show that you love. Write a role-playing game adventure. pick a... Try doing tie-in work. Pick a book series or a video game series that you love and write a short story using those characters and set in that universe. Do something that you've never done before, and see how it feels.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write. 

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Writing Excuses 20.46:  Now Go Write - Break All The Rules ( part 2)

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-46-now-go-write-break-all-the-rules-part-2


Key points: Show, don't tell? Or not? Compress or expand. Using telling to establish important points. Systemless magic? ACES: Access, Causality, Ease, Strangeness. 


[Season 20, Episode 46]


[unknown] Your gaming setup should flex as hard as you do. Lenovo, the world's number one gaming brand, delivers devices that are powerful, whisper quiet, and engineered for victory. This setup totally changed how I play. Featuring top tier GPU, ultra responsive displays, and advanced cooling systems, Lenovo supports every lifestyle and play style. So shop now at lenovo.com/gaming and check out Lenovo gaming PCs. [singing: Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 46]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses, now go Write - break all the rules ( part 2).

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Erin] Okay. We are back. We have two numbers remaining in my rule breaking thing that I'm doing.

[Mary Robinette] Three.

[Erin] 3. Okay. telling instead of showing. So, this is, like, interestingly, I think, show don't tell, became very popular and then very, like, unpopular, and is now maybe resurging. I don't know how you feel about... Do you think people still tell people show don't tell, or has that fallen out of favor in [many theaters]?

[Mary Robinette] I see it...

[DongWon] [garbled] hear it all the time.

[Mary Robinette] They do.

[Erin] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] They do. So part of the thing that drives me crazy about show don't tell is that it's not a real quote, people quote it as if it's Chekhov and he didn't actually ever say it. The closest we get... What we have is actually a summary of someone else's interpretation of a letter that he wrote to his brother. And if we look at the actual thing he wrote, it's much more limited and focused in application. So, "in descriptions of nature, we must seize on small details, grouping them so that when the reader closes his eyes, he gets a picture." For instance, you'll have a moonlit night. If you write that on the mill dam  a piece of glass from a broken bottle glittered like a bright little star and the black shadow of a dog or a wolf rolled past it like a ball. So what he meant was that you can use those details to create an image. But he's not saying don't tell people about things. Like, that's not what he's saying.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Not even a little bit.

[Erin] And...

[DongWon] Yeah. The advice of show don't tell is the way that like [garbled] faster than anything else. Right? Because the thing is about a novel is that it is mostly the writer telling us stuff.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's what writing is, is people telling people other things.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And also, like, that is storytelling.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Most of the time, most of the stories you are told, like, when we're not reading something...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] If your friend is like, Ah can't believe it, like, aliens landed and then zombies attacked me. Like, a lot of what they're... They're just going to be telling you what happened to them.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] They cannot show you the thing has happened.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And the really good storytellers... You could have three friends. Something... The same amazing thing happened to them. And one friend you know would just be much better at conveying it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And, like, one friend would make it really boring even if it was like the biggest thing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because some people know how to tell in a really interesting way, and some just are working on that.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I find that I tend to, instead of saying show don't tell, I tend to talk more about compressing and expanding.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That the things that usually, things that are not emotionally important, we're going to compress so we can get past them faster. And things that are emotionally important, we're going to expand and unpack so we can live them. But there are times when you want to compress something that is a nice emotional and important thing to give more space for the reader to come in. So, Stephen King, I'm going to quote this not quite right, but in On Writing, he talks about you can expand, you can describe the amount of pain someone is in. The white hot pick lancing through his... like, you can describe all of that, or you can say they ripped off his thumbnail. And, like, that immediately makes people...

[DongWon] Ow!

[Mary Robinette] Go... Right! Right, but I just told you that, I didn't des... I didn't show it. Right? But it invites, it leaves space for the reader...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] To come in and bring their own experience there. So there are places where you do, I think, want to compress so that the reader will fill in the gaps.

[DongWon] And it goes back to what we were talking about in the first half of this episode, of the  karaoke singer who just belts the whole time. Right? You need to have that variance. Right? And sometimes, the most effective thing is to zoom really all the way in on the quietest, most nothing moment, the bug crawling across a leaf, because that can be a rich metaphorical image for what's about to happen. And then you'll speed up, and be like, and then he went about his whole day and did X, Y,  and Z, blah blah blah blah blah. Right? And, like, sometimes that zooming in and zooming out is you communicating to your reader the information you want them to have in various ways, and sometimes it's not obvious what needs to be written out in extreme detail, and sometimes it's obvious what needs to be told to them to skip past.

[Mary Robinette] There's... I did the translation for Hildurknutsdotter's The Night Guest. And in it, like, stuff goes wrong, as you might guess from the title, at night. And there's this one chapter, and the entirety of the chapter is, I have decided to stop sleeping.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Right?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That's not good.

[Mary Robinette] No. No. And it's just this cold thing. And then it's just blank pages. And then you turn...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] And like it's... But again, it's that leaving space, it's the deciding the one detail that I'm going to tell you and then you get to build everything else from that.


[Erin] Yeah. I love all of that. And I think one other thing I think telling can be really good at is establishing rules of the world when you're not sure what people...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] May take away. If there's something that's like a fundamental, like, load-bearing wall of your setting, and you're like, I really think it's important that everyone understand that this is like underwater. Like, I think there are times...

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] When you don't...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] To just be so showy...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That people miss it.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] And then they're like, wait, this was underwater the whole... 

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That changed everything.

[DongWon] Or the opposite happens. The biggest mistake I see show don't tell mis-applied is in the opening of books. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Oh, my goodness.

[DongWon] The first page of a book, where people be like, oh, I'm just going to show them how the rules of this world work. But I'm like, I'm a baby, I don't understand...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Anything yet. I don't know, are we underwater? Are we above water? And you can say a thing that is a metaphorical beautiful image, and I will take it so literally and be like, wait, this isn't an underwater site, that was a metaphor?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? Because I don't know enough yet to not know that that wasn't literal. Right? And so the openings of books is a place to be telling people information, and you want to do it in ways that are engaging and well written and captivating. But you can tell people stuff in interesting ways. Just because it's telling doesn't mean it's inherently boring or doesn't have layered information or doesn't have thematic resonance. You just gotta get better at telling people stuff.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I called this playing coy with the reader.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Where it's like I just want you to figure it out. It's like... I'm like, or we can communicate.

[Erin] If you think about it as a baby, it's great.

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] like, well, like how do you walk? Well, you figure it out. Like, you know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] There's a certain amount of that you can do, but at a certain point, I think, you do have to like eventually tell the babies a few things once they understand language.

[DongWon] Or at least don't get mad at the baby when it walks into a table...

[laughter]

[DongWon] You didn't tell it about tables. You know what I mean? One area where I think this really comes from is because so much of our narrative language has become visual. Right? We talk about movies... I mean, you'll hear me do it on this podcast constantly, of using movies and TV as reference points for how we tell stories. Right? The problem is that a book is wildly different...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] From a visual medium, because they only know literally what you tell them. They don't know anything other than what words you put on the page versus when you're watching an image on a screen, you're  absorbing a ton of information about what are they wearing, what's the lighting like, all of these different things. All these other departments are coming into play in a way in which you don't necessarily get in a book.

[Mary Robinette] But that actually is one of the places that show don't tell has come from...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] Is that one of the things that people took it from, like, this whole Chekhov idea was during the transition from silent films to talkies. And the show don't tell was don't use narration cards... Or not silent films to talkies, but to silent films. Don't use narration cards when you can just... When you can show it, because they were like, this is a visual medium, you should be using those tools. We also say, in puppet theater, it's a puppet show, not a puppet tell...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Because...

[DongWon] Yeah, well, Chekhov was a playwright.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was a playwright. But... Yeah.

[Erin] And I do think there are times when, like, you can... I think sometimes the positive of show don't tell is if you're used to visual media and you're trying to, like, write that way, you may forget to include some of the stuff that you take away...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] From... Like, when you see an actor, like with a single tear going down their eye, like, as they watch a sunset, you're filling in a lot... You're telling yourself, like, a little bit of the story. And sometimes that part of the telling gets lost.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But a lot of times, I think, it is about telling really well, and we're... We're running long. But I will say that I think some of the ways that you can tell well are think about the way you pace,...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] The way you're telling things. Watch really good kind of stand-up comedians, who are... Who tell really interesting stories that lead to a joke. They use the rule of threes, they sort of increase in their cadence and pace as they get closer to the big thing that they want you to understand. They  use really interesting words when they're telling you something. I mean, I'm completely... not to judge your friends at home, but if you think about the way your not as good at  telling things friends might tell you something versus your friend who could tell you a trip to the grocery store and make it sound like the most epic adventure ever, it's because they... A lot that they're telling you, they use language that makes it sound very exciting. And so you can use all of those tools as a thing.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And I think also the very fun thing about telling is that it reveals the teller.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So the way somebody tells a story says a lot about the way they see the world.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And when you want to reveal something about your protagonist, having them tell the reader something also tells the reader something...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] About who they are.

[DongWon] Exactly.


[Mary Robinette] Speaking of telling you things, you do your final number...

[Erin] I will do my final number, which is one, and this is one I'm going to... This is my, like, most controversial number. And I'm just going to run through it and tell you, because I have a saying that I believe, that magic doesn't have to have a system, is my last one. I think system magic is fine, but I'm a huge fan of systemless magic, or magic just exists in the world. And the way that I think about this is through a framework that I call ACES. Which is, A is access. So you're thinking about how magic is going to work in your world. A is access, who can do the magic? Can everyone do it? Can only people from the bloodline of Rohisla do it? Which apparently is now a family. Can like...

[Mary Robinette] So that's what the of Rohisla was [garbled]

[Erin] That's right. Like, is it... So who can do it? C is for causality. How direct is you doing anything from you getting what you want? Is it like every time if I clap three times, click my heels three times, and say there's no place like home, I will go home? Or is it like I'm going to wish and like it might not come true exactly the way that I want it to? The more causality you'll find in, like, a D&D style magic where you know exactly what the spell does. But there are... You could have a form of magic, and when it's just like I think it'll do this, but I don't know exactly how to make it happen. E is for ease, how easy is it to do the magic? Do you have to sacrifice your first born child or cut off your toenails every time you need to do magic? Or is it like you could just wake up tomorrow and do it? And then finally strangeness. How weird is what the magic is doing compared to what we are doing? Are you turning people inside out? Are you turning them into a frog? Are you just making them walk slightly faster? Like, how it is. And so thinking about what those things are, and in my essay, I will go into depth about how you can think about those things and use them against each other.

[DongWon] I certainly think Lord of the Rings would be better if Gandalf the White said, I'm casting a level 9 Fireball...

[laughter]

[DongWon] So you consume meta magic sorcery points to make it a maximized style at this range.

[laughter]

[Erin] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I don't disagree with you, because I've read stories where...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And also, I disagree with you only because the people using the magic or existing in that world are usually humans, and humans are pattern seeking creatures, and we will turn everything into a magic system, like the bus. How do you get the bus to come? The spell you cast is you walk away from the bus stop. Like, we will find... Like, don't say that thing out loud. Like, we will systematize things that do not have systems.

[DongWon] But I think superstition is still resistant to systemization. Right? Like, people have ideas of what works and doesn't versus what the narrator is telling us works and doesn't work. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Because, like, there are also times where I knock on wood and then the bad thing happens anyways.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? Am I going to stop knocking on wood? No. Does that... And so I think in so many ways, making magic not numinous and strange and unpredictable can sometimes... For certain kinds of storytelling, bleed something out of it, and then for other kinds of story, I want to know exactly how my magic works in a really detailed way, in the way that I want to know how the engines work in The Expanse.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? But I don't really care how the engines work in Star Trek. You know what I mean? It's just another tool in your kit.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I think the difference is that in The Expanse, we want to know how the engines work because it is almost always a plot point.

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] And it's never a plot point in Star...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Trek?

[DongWon] Star Trek. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I mean, dilithium crystals. But whatever. Like, we know enough. So... And I think, to quote the founder of this podcast, the Sanderson's law, that the... Oh. I can't... I'm not going to quote him, I'm going to paraphrase him. That the definition of the magic system is proportional to the amount of plot that it carries.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, like, if it's like this thing always happens if you do... If you say Beetlejuice three times, like, we don't need to know why that works, we don't need to know any of those things.

[Erin] Yeah. I think, two things I would say. One is I do think we are pattern seeking creatures. But I also think there are a lot of folk traditions, especially like around, like, ghosts and haunts, where, like, people don't really understand it, nor do they want to. I think there's a feeling that this is beyond human understanding, and attempting to understand it will actually make it bad for you.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And that we should just sort of, like, leave it out there... Like, will the ghost of your great aunt show up? Maybe. And why is she showing up tonight? I don't know. Like...

[DongWon] None of my business.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] None of my business, and I'm not going to ask.

[DongWon, Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] A lot of questions about that. But she's just there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] But I do think that the role of plot, to me it's more...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Does it solve problems? Or is it part of the problem? And the way I think about that is gravity. So if gravity, like, if you're like,, I can't move because gravity is too heavy, you probably don't need to know, like, how gravity works in order to just understand its effect. But if you controlling gravity is what's going to fix that problem, then you're going to want to understand...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] How it works.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So you can have magic be a problem creator and you just need to understand enough to know, like, oh, no, I said this three times and this person appeared. I guess that's what it does. But what you don't want to have happen, I think, is for the way in which it works to be the solution, but only you the author understand it, it never...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Becomes clear.

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] Either to the characters or for the reader.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, basically, I think we... I completely agree with you, I just needed to...

[DongWon] Totally. I think we're really on the same page.

[Mary Robinette] I just needed to poke at it a little bit.

[Erin] What?

[Mary Robinette] I know...

[Erin] It's like we're on a podcast together...

[Mary Robinette] I have opinions that are accepted.


[Erin] Speaking of being on a podcast, we are going to go to the homework. And your homework is to pick one of the four things we talked about. So, systemless magic, inactive protagonist, telling versus showing, or passive voice. Take a scene that you've written and rewrite it where this is the thing that you're doing. And see how much it changes.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.



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Writing Excuses 20.45:  Now Go Write - Break All the Rules (Part 1)


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-45-now-go-write-break-all-the-rules-part-1


Key points: Break all the rules. Use passive voice! Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all?


[Season 20, Episode  45]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 45]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses. Now go write - break all the rules (part 1).

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Erin] And I am excited to be talking about one of the sections that I am writing in the Now Go Write craft book, which is Break All the Rules. So I am very excited about writing rules and not following them. Because I like to destroy things, I guess...

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] I don't know.

[DongWon] Oppositional, even to yourself.

[Erin] Yeah. Exactly. Like, why? And so what I started doing when I was writing this section is I kept coming up with, like, different rules and how to break them. And they each, like, kind of spun off into their own little mini-essay. And so what I thought I would do for this episode is I have four of them that I want to talk about, and I wanted to sort of throw them out and say like, what do y'all think about this particular rule, when it should be broken, and I'm going to have Mary Robinette roll a virtual die to decide which one we talk about first.

[Mary Robinette] We're starting with number four.

[Erin] We're starting with number four, which is passive voice. So the rule here is do not use passive voice. Can one of you explain what this is, in case somebody missed it in all their writing classes?

[Mary Robinette] So, um, if you can say... It's basically she will be chased by zombies is different than zombies chased her. And zombies chased her is active, she will be... Or she is chased by zombies is passive, and it's supposed to be a distancing thing. That you can pick a more active verb, that you can make it more immediate.

[Erin] Yeah. I often see this as like, don't ever use is. Like, if is exists in your story, beat it to death with the adverbs that you also should be taking out of the story, which we will not be talking about today. But I really think that passive voice can be very, very useful. and a couple of ways that I think of that you can use passive voice to good intent, I'll tell you, tell me what you think, and if you have other ones. So one is by depersonalizing actions on purpose. So, like, she is chased by zombies is a couple things. Like, maybe the point is not who's doing the chasing, but that she is being chased. In the way that police actions are often reported...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In the news, where it's like, the person, like, was killed by the cops, versus, the cops killed this person.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Shows the attitude of what is important in this case.

[DongWon] The suspect was struck by 17 bullets. Like...

[Erin] Exactly. Which is...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, where it's like who even shot the bullets?

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] Who knows? They were just struck by those bullets. The important thing is that they were stopped and here's how, not who did the stopping.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It shows where the focus of the story is, and if you're trying to show, hey, in this particular story, the focus is on the 17 bullets and the person being ended, not, like, who is doing it, then that's a way to use passive voice. I would say another one is if the who is doing it is a surprise. So I was bitten... By a zombie, is different...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Than a zombie bit me, if you don't know a zombie exists in the story.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] Right.

[Erin] I was bitten by, like, gives you a chance to ramp up into the reveal of the sentence...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Which is the noun. Like, it is like the, oh, you weren't bitten by your dog, you were bitten by a zombie. Holy crap. And so that's another reason to use passive voice.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I mean, I think active voice, in general, or, like, the activity level of The Voice is a dial. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And you could be Spinal Tap and say this always has to be at 11, or you can crank it down sometimes. And, like, you can deliberately slow things down and deliberately add a little padding in there. And sometimes those extra words will slow your reader's pace down when you want them to slow down a little bit and be a little bit more abstract and then ramp it up again later as things pick up for whatever reason. Right? And so I think being able to use the passive voice is just another tool in your kit. Right? Not to be too on the point, but tools, not rules. This is a tool that you can use. Do people overuse it when they're first learning to write? Probably.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] But...

[Mary Robinette] It's also a tool, like, you can also use it to do some really creepy...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Things. Like, if you want your character to be a prisoner in their own body. So... The door was opened by her own hand...

[Erin] Oooh!

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But she has no control over that. That can be, like, ugh!

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. And I think also, to, like super agree about the dial, it's like if you ever go out, not to use karaoke for everything...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And hear somebody who is like a great belter, they have a very strong voice...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But if they just belt the entire song at the exact same level, at a certain point...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You will tune it out. Like, you're just like, at first, you'll be like, oh, exciting that you can do that, and then you'll be like, oh my gosh, like, again? And so I think that sometimes you see people use so much activity that it just becomes like Jane ran up the hill, Jane grabbed the bucket, like, everything becomes kind of same-y. And I think another thing that passive voice can do is to provide, like, a frame or a bed for the activity that is happening. The thing around it that makes the more active voice sentence stand out. Because it is the one that is doing it differently. It is belting out of a slow, calmer verse that brings all of this attention to...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Why have you become loud at this moment?

[DongWon] It can give us what we think of in film as an establishing shot. You know what I mean? Like, a broader framework of the action, and then we zoom into the more active thing that's happening. She was chased by a horde of zombies. she reached for the gun. You know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And the difference between those two things lets us zoom out and zoom in in a way that I think is really, really useful. And it's just a great tool in your kit.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Exactly. The last thing I'll say about this one... Sorry, I didn't mean to... Ah, is to like I think things like weather, time...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Setting... I mean, yes, the sun can beat down upon you, and, like, the wind can beat you down or buffet you, but, like, sometimes, like, the setting is just existing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's not actively opposing you. It is merely the thing that you are moving through. And it is nice to just kind of give it a bit more of a... It is passively there and doing things and you are doing things in the setting, as opposed to the setting is doing things to you.

[DongWon] Sometimes the wind was blowing through the trees is a better sentence than the wind blew through the trees.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? Sometimes you want that extra little bit of softness there.

[Erin] Yeah. And the feeling of ongoingness...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, the wind was blowing through the trees sounds like something that's happening over time, whereas the wind blew through the trees seems like it just started.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And it is a new action that you have to pay attention to right in this moment.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[Erin] Okay, another number.

[Mary Robinette] Two.

[Erin] Two. This is very similar in some ways. The inactive protagonist.

[Mary Robinette] Ah!

[Erin] Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all? Does your... Answer the question... Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all?

[Mary Robinette] So I've been thinking about this a lot, and I don't think that your protagonist does have to have agency or do anything at all. But I do think that it's going to be a more interesting story if they have an interior life, and are to some degree aware of their lack of agency.

[Erin] Yeah. I think that they have to do something, but the something can be internal.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Not externally focused. So, a protagonist who survives... If you think about it, a lot of horror  movies are about survival. Sometimes that survival is active, like, I grabbed the knife and threw it at the zombie horde. But sometimes it's just like I waited, I listened, like... Which are actions, but they're very like... They're not actions of agency. They're actions of reaction. I'm trying to figure out what the threat is and how to deal with it.

[DongWon] I mean, ironically, we see this a lot in video games, actually, of a protagonist who's very passive. And very reactive to the situation around them, and then the active choices are being made by the side characters, the companion characters, NPCs, things like that, in part because they don't want to put too much on the perspective of the player. And so... It's sort of why we often see fan art or fan stories about side characters more than the main character. You think about like Mass Effect or Dragon Age fandoms. These are all obsessed with those side characters and less interested in the main characters. The main characters just reacting to whatever is going on. And we see this a lot in anything that has an audience surrogate kind of character. A lot of, weirdly, superhero movies fall into this model, too. Where a lot of times the main character is kind of inactive for a lot of it, and is responding to the things happening around them as the world acts crazier and crazier. But the big choices are being made by the villain, the big choices are being made by companions with them.

[Erin] Yeah. And that can create such an exciting feeling of tension, because often in our own lives, we don't have as much agency as...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] We wish we did over the broader events happening around us. And so we can really identify... I think that's why it works for an audience surrogate.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] If the character has really strong agency, we maybe don't feel as much like we identify with that character,  more as we enjoy them. But we don't feel like that could be me. Because if aliens were attacking my town, I also would be hiding  out in my closet.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And not necessarily, like, fighting them tooth and nail, scrapping right there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. It is one of those things where... like, I just finished a short story where the main character was a literal inanimate object.

[Erin] Oooh!

[Mary Robinette] And so there is no action that the character can take. Because it does not have movement. But it has all of the tension, because it's... Because it can't react. So, like, aliens coming in and you need to hide... You're not going to go out and fight the aliens? Yeah. Yeah, that's going to be a really tense thing because at any moment, they could come, and you still have no agency there, because they're aliens from another world.

[DongWon] Yeah. I would argue that the picaresque is an entire genre based on having a very inactive protagonist.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I mean, they're active in that they go from point A to point B, but they're not the ones who are inspiring the events when they arrive at that place. They're observing it and reacting to it. So, something like Confederacy of Dunces or something like that is... He's not actively making any real choices in his life. I mean, Ulysses, kind of the same... The Joyce's Ulysses kind of the same thing, of... I mean, kind of arguably, the original Ulysses, too. Anyways. But mostly that these characters are just wandering around and stuff is happening around them and they're observing it without really having a lot of influence on the outcome. And, I mean, these are some brilliant works of literature. They're very specific. They may not be for everyone. But there's absolutely space for a story in which your protagonist is kind of in the pocket.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But I think what Erin said about the... That they are still doing something...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] Even if it's only an interior...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] And that's evaluating or reacting...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Or having an emotion.

[Erin] And often, like you said with video games, like, side characters will fill that role, like... Because something is changing, usually, in a story. So who is changing it? Either it is something that naturally changes, like the seasons. It is something that a character is changing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be your character. So I think I would say if you want to  have a more inactive protagonist, figure out where is the activity, where is the change coming from? Is it the world? Is it the other characters in the world? And then, how is your protagonist either a reflection, a survival of, a reaction to those active changes. And now it is time for us to take an action, and that is to go to break.


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


[Mary Robinette] So when Erin says take a break, what we actually mean is, it's time for homework. When we originally recorded this, it was going to be one episode, but we've decided to split it into two. So your homework for this episode is to write down some of the rules you think you follow most rigidly in your own writing. Like, are you a big fan of show, don't tell? Do you think that you should cut all words that end with ly? But take one of these rules and begin to think about ways you can challenge the rule, you can break it, you can soften it in some way. What happens if you invert it? So, that's your homework.


[Mary Robinette] You're out of excuses. Now go write.


 
mbarker: (Burp)
[personal profile] mbarker
 Writing Excuses 20.44: Now go Write -  How to Handle Relationships 

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-44-now-go-write-how-to-handle-relationships


Key Points: Kowal relationship axes: mind, money, morals, manners, monogamy/model, and mirth. Aspects of self: Ability, role, relationship, and status. tools of a healthy relationship. Communication, compromise, and commitment.


[Season 20, Episode  44]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode  44]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon]  Now go write - how to handle relationships.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Mary Robinette] And we have an exciting announcement. Writing Excuses is going to be publishing a book. It's called Now Go Write. It's all of us talking about the things that we have been talking about on the podcast for the past 20 seasons, but in a handy paper formula... Formula? [garbled] format. Formulation...

[DongWon] A formula format.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So that you don't have to listen to us doing things like that.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Because the book will be copy edited, unlike the podcast.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So, to give you a teaser of that, we are each going to be sharing with you one of the topics that we have written a chapter for the book. We're going to start with me. And I'm going to be talking about how to handle relationships. So. This is based on this whole conversation that I had with my mother-in-law, honestly. But one of the things that you see repeatedly in all sorts of media are relationships that are built around the characters, like, fighting with each other, the whole will they want this, where they have a good relationship, and then they have to break up for plot reasons. It's deeply annoying. But once you have characters, they have to interact with each other, whether it's a romantic relationship or friend relationship. So, this is some tools to look at how to make that believable and also a source of momentum. So, I mentioned my mother-in-law. She has this thing that I call the Kowal relationship axes...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which is dating advice she gave my husband. He modified it, and I modified it a little bit more. The theory is relationships exist on multiple axes, and the more closely aligned you are on these axes, the more you'll get along. So these axes are mind, money, morals, manners, monogamy, and mirth. Don't worry, those are going to go in the liner notes, and also, there's a handy chart that will be in the book. But. mind is both people have the same level of intelligence. Money, they have similar attitudes about money. Morals, the same kind of sense of right and wrong. Manners, the same idea of what is polite. This is also,  by the way, sometimes you know people who are assholes online, but you meet them in person and they seem charming, because their manners are aligned with yours, but their morals are deeply messed up. Monogamy is not actually... My husband just needed them to be all m's. The original one was hot, burning kisses, from my mother-in-law.

[awww... mmmm....]

[Mary Robinette] There you go.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] But the idea is basically that you have the same idea of what the relationship is.

[DongWon] Right.

[Mary Robinette] Like, you've met someone, and they think you are BFF, and you are, like, we have met at the water cooler. And it's really uncomfortable.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And then mirth, you find the same things funny. So, now, any of those axes where you are out of alignment is going to be where your source of conflict is. So, for instance, my husband and I are closely aligned on all of those, but we're a little bit out of alignment on money. We both agree about what money is for, but in the Aesop's fable, I am the grasshopper, he is the ant. And then the other place we're a little bit out of alignment is manners, because he is from Hawaii and I am from Tennessee. Those are not the same.

[DongWon] Yeah. Just a little different.

[Mary Robinette] Just a tiny bit different. So if we have outside pressures pushing on us, those are the places where our conflicts will show. So when you're creating characters that you want to get along, you try to keep them as closely aligned as possible. And when you want them to disagree, like be in wild conflict, then you can move those things wildly out of alignment. So, those are the Kowal relationship axes. I have two other tools that I want to toss at people, but I thought we would talk about these before we move on to the others.

[DongWon] It's impossible to not start immediately mapping every person in my life onto those [garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Uhuh.

[DongWon] Of, like, all of my friends, my partner, my like relationship to other family members. I'm like, oh, where are we aligned? Where is the misalignment coming in?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. I was like, and next, Writing Excuses will create a dating app...

[laughter]

[Erin] Where you could align yourself, and it'll be called, Now Go Date. No, just kidding.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But, it did make me think, like, where you might pull out of alignment could also be an interesting, like, thematic thing with a story. Like, you could say, like, in this story, I really want everyone to have really different morals, but be aligned on manners...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] To talk about, like... That's an observation I want to make about society. Or I really want to have a money thing, because I want to explore how capitalism affects the way that our relationships are.

[DongWon] Right.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And so that could be really fun.

[DongWon] Well, one thing that always strikes me is how much like Regency Era romances are much more about money than contemporary romances.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Where it could be almost like inappropriate to make it about that in a certain way. But, like, what someone's income is is so important in that era for, like, women trying to find their romantic match.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, and it was considered, like, kind of understandable if you prioritized money.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, if she's like, oh, he didn't marry me because he found this woman worth 10,000  pounds a year, and everyone's like, well, I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like people...

[DongWon] And the scandal is taking the monogamy match.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Or the morals and mind match...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Over the money match.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right. You can see that in, like, Jane Eyre and things like that. And it makes those so rich and responsive to the thematic elements of those books.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And one of the other things that's interesting also is that these are all the starting states. And for the most part, people stay more or less aligned, but there are things that you can push out of alignment during... Over the course of the story. So, like, when someone comes into a big inheritance. Or if someone is in an accident and they have some brain damage. Sometimes people don't respond well to that. If someone has a moral awakening and they're like... If they become woke...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And they realize, oh, I am...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Now out of alignment with people that I thought were my friends, but I can't... I think some of us have had that reaction to some books. So these are things that you can push around also during the course of the book to introduce tension, even if you don't start there. And you can also bring them more closely in alignment where... And it's like, oh, oh, I was wrong about a thing.

[DongWon] Yeah. Or just change the lens. Like, where you're putting your attention. Where when you first meet somebody, maybe you're not thinking about morals...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] As much. You're focused on the chemistry there, you're focused on, oh, we like find the same things funny. And 3 months into the relationship, you're like, oh, no, we think about how we should treat other people very differently.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And I think, like you were saying about how manners can cover up a difference in moral or mind in interesting ways...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And, going back to Jane Austen with Darcy and Lizzie, they are actually really closely aligned. They are not as far off... She thinks they are significantly farther off on morals. Like morals, they're actually pretty aligned, family is the most important thing. They are out of alignment in terms of manners, because her family is...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] A lot. But that's also where the conflict is between them.

[Erin] That's interesting, because she also thinks that he has bad manners in the less, like, social class way and the more like you just rude kind of way.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So it's interesting because, in fact, her family is the, like, wow, did you invite them to the party...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Family. But, I mean, while she spends a lot of the book sort of judging his manners...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Within a mannered world.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Exactly. There's an interesting idea in the Regency that manners are an outward expression of our opinion of others. Which is different than etiquette, which is formally codified rules. And so there's a line somewhere in there about how he has manners that are not calculated to please.

[DongWon] Interesting.

[Mary Robinette] And I'm like, yeah, no, he did not want to.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So when we come back from the break, I'm going to introduce you to a couple of other things. I'm going to introduce you to aspects of self, and then how to apply these. Because this tells you how to create conflicts, but it doesn't tell you how to use them.


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[Mary Robinette] Besides recording writing excuses, I am kind of always trying to level up my game. So I went on Master Class, and I took this class by David Sedaris about storytelling and humor. It was really thought provoking. Like, Howard and I talk about humor all the time on the podcast, but the way David approaches it is so different and also has so many overlaps. He talks about finding your way into the story, how to end with a weight, which was a really interesting thing to think about. Anyway, at Master Class, they have thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. So if you're a Writing Excuses listener, and you like the 15 minutes long situation, Master Class has that. They have plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers... hello, friends... chefs, and like a ton of other things. So with Master Class, you can learn from the best to become your best. That sounds hokey, but honestly, I really enjoy taking classes through there. It is one of those places where you get access, and it has this very intimate quality to it. With the David Sedaris class, in particular, I was trying to figure out  how to work some humor into a short story that was...  around some stuff with my mom, honestly. And listening to him talk about that through that class was just very helpful at getting some new angles to think about it. New ways to be a little more honest with my writing. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/excuses. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/excuses. I'm going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses.


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[Mary Robinette] Welcome back from the break. This is one of my favorite topics, honestly, so I'm really glad that I get to do a whole chapter for it. Okay. So. Aspects of self. One of the things that you can do when you are looking at a relationship in a book and how to handle it, is to treat the relationship like a character. So the relationship itself is a character. Which means that that relationship can go on a character arc. That's the kind of thing that you're going to do if you want the character of the relationship to change. Enemies to lovers, that kind of thing. It's also a thing that you can think about if you do not want the relationship to change, if you want it to be stable. So, if you've got... If we think of it as a character, I think that there are four things that, four aspects of self definition for people, not talking about, like, the outward things, but how we self-define. Ability, role, relationship, and status. So, ability is defined by areas of competence, things you can and cannot do. Role is defined by responsibilities, tasks. Relationship is defined by loyalty, and status is defined by power, basically. So the idea is that... Let's say that we have a heist scene. We're doing an ensemble. We've got an ensemble.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] They're stealing the ace [garbled]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yes. Yes, we have to have the  jewels of Rohisla and the extra exclamation points and apostrophes that go with...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] That. So. The team is fully committed to each other. They are absolutely, like, we are a team. But one of them identifies as ability. Like, we are a group of thieves because we steal things, I have the ability to crack safes, you have the ability to climb walls, you have the ability to impersonate anybody, we have these abilities. That's... This is how we work. We've got these abilities. And someone else is like, no, we are a team because we're thieves. That is what we do, We steal things. If we didn't have those abilities, then we would find other ways to steal things. And someone else is like, no, no, guys, it's not that, it's about our relationship, we're a family. If we couldn't steal things, we would like open a pizza joint. I love you so much.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And the last one is like, no, we steal things because that gives us money, and money gives us power, and that's why we do this. And we are a team because we are all the best at that. So they're all fully committed to each other, but if there is friction about whether or not to go on with the heist, that is the place where one person might pop out a little bit from the team. And then you can go back and look at how those arguments manifest by looking at the relationship axes. So. Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. I was going to say, like, I'm thinking about ways in which each of... Each person might, like, nope out. So, if you're like, it turns out the gem is actually worthless, it's really hard to steal. Like, it actually requires a lot of ability. But it will... We can't sell it for anything. It's just like we're doing it for the fun.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] The person who's into status is like, well, if it's not worth anything, like why would we go through all this, like, trouble to do it? Or if somebody's like, oh, I can't, it's a safe that I would have trouble cracking. The ability person might say no. Or somebody who believes in the role as thieves would say, we still gotta try. Like, we're thieves, we're gonna try to find another way around it. And so I think it's really cool to, like, look at how they might each drop out of the heist.

[DongWon] Well, you can use that to sort of highlight the thematics of the story you're telling. Right? Like, I'm thinking about the second arc of the first season of Andor. The Aldhani Heist, that entire squad, each of the members of that team have different reasons for being there.[garbled] Vela is there for relationship, Cinta is there for ability, Nemik is there for status, because it's all about the cause for him.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? And the entire arc of the first season of Andor is Andor moving from one role to another role in that breakdown. And so by highlighting the differences between them, you can use that contrast to really emphasize the thematic points you're trying to create.

[Mary Robinette] Exactly. I think that's a great example. And it also... I'm glad you said moves from one role to another, because...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] That's also a stress point for an individual and for relationships.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So if they have a sudden status drop or if someone has to shift roles... If they have to add someone to the team and then figure out how they fit in, like, all of these things can cause stress. And it's very grounded stress. It's not the, like, oh, I don't like the way you make coffee, I'm out of here. Sometimes people just, like, make up weird things. You don't pronounce Rohisla with enough emphasis.

[Chuckles]

[Erin][garbled]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I know.

[DongWon] Not to spoil it or over index on Andor, but like the final turn in that arc is a moment where one character says to him, "you're just like me," and he's right and he looks at what that means and can't bear it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's what shifts his status, is him seeing that the relationship... Our moral is the same... And then him looking at that and being like, I don't want that to be true anymore. And then that is what kicks him off on his hero's journey from there, and it's just like this incredible moment...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right at the end of that. So...

[Erin] Oh, God. How Javier of him. My favorite, like, person who in realizing they are the same as the hero is just like, nah...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I can no longer... I can literally not live with myself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Understanding that like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] We actually are the same.

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. All right.

[DongWon] That's the kindest reading of Javier I've heard in a long time.

[laughter]

[Erin] Javier? He's just like us. No he's not.

[DongWon] No he's not. He's definitely not.

[Mary Robinette] I'm just kind of waiting for a chorus to break through.

[laughter]


[Mary Robinette] So the other thing that you can play with is the tools of a healthy relationship. Communication, compromise, and commitment. And unhealthy relationship lacks those things. And this is why the plot line of... If they... That results in readers going, if they would just talk to each other, is so annoying because you know that this is an unhealthy relationship, and it's just continuing to be an unhealthy relationship. So I find that often I can get more tension out of letting my characters talk to each other and having it be an uncomfortable conversation then I can by them not talking to each other. Because just like in the real world, all you're doing is you're avoiding discomfort. And discomfort is where the tension is. The other is just like nah...

[DongWon] I mean, this is a case where you can see the ways in which modeling realism becomes more frustrating as a narrative experience. Right? Because in reality, we know all of our friends who aren't talking to their spouses about the things, that's a huge problem with their relationship, and won't do that for whatever reason. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, I swear to God. But...

[Erin] No, I'm thinking about like every Am I The Asshole post ever...

[laughter]

[Erin] Maybe just asking...

[DongWon] I think most advice columns just boil down to I don't know, why don't you talk about it?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? And this is a pattern that we see in real life everyday, and yet whenever we encounter it in fiction, it's immediately infuriating. You want to just, like, just talk to them and figure it out. You know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] In the same way that it's infuriating in my own life, when I'm like, please talk to them, I'm begging you. But fiction is heightened in that way. Right? We want to explore the discomfort. And so I think just letting it be the real thing...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] The realistic thing is a weird trap in this case.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And I think it's also one of those things where you can split the difference. They don't have to immediately say I feel like we have a conflict and let's discuss it. But there comes a point where it is... You've pushed it so far. And I think the thing you said about how it's frustrating when your friends don't talk to each other, that's the thing, is that the reader kind of becomes a friend.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Who... To the characters in the book. Or at least a stalker.

[Chuckles] 

[Mary Robinette] And they want the characters to do...

[DongWon] [garbled] Your friend too. So, yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. I really like the... What I call the forks and spoons conversations. Which is where, like, you're arguing over the dinner placement, but it's really about, like, your feeling about your mother-in-law.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Not yours. But anyone's. Because I think in that case, they are communicating, they're just not doing it... They're not able to live in the discomfort, and so they're doing it like sideways.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] We see this a lot really well done in theater. And it's like, okay, the audience can read what's going on, and eventually sometimes there's a breakthrough where it breaks from we're talking about the fork, like, wait, are we really talking about Jimmy and school, and that's such a great moment because you as an audience member also get to feel clever. You understood what they were talking about...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Before they did, and then when they finally realize it, you're like, oh...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I knew that's what it was really about, and it gives you that feeling of, like, I am as smart as the people in the story that I think we often enjoy.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] There's an incredible moment in the film Hereditary, which I doubt either of you have seen, but it's to me the scariest moment in the film. It's the thing where nothing supernatural is happening, they're having polite conversation on the dinner table, and one character begins to complain about something and Tony Collette, who plays the mom, freaks out and starts screaming at them about like, I'm your mother. It's just an incredible moment, an incredible speech, and the catharsis is finally saying out loud all the subtle [garbled] things that have been happening throughout the movie.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.

[DongWon] Seeing those forks and spoons conversations for what it feels like an eternity at that point. And so the dam breaking is just an incredible moment of catharsis. But you're right, that has to reinforce my understanding of what's happening here. And because it does, it becomes this beautiful clarifying moment that's also deeply harrowing and traumatizing.

[Mary Robinette] Ah. I love that. I may see if I can work that into the essay.

[Chuckles]


[Mary Robinette] Um. So the kind of last tool that I want to talk to you about is how to handle these in sort of an arc. So I've already talked about you can treat it like a character arc. So the relationship is undergoing change. This is what you have with the meet cute, where they're trying to decide sort of who they are and is this a... Also the sort of thing you see with breakups as well. You can also apply this in using the MICE Quotient, you can apply it in a couple of other ways. You can treat the relationship like a milieu. The story begins when the character enters the relationship and it ends when they exit it, and you are... the whole thing is then about exploring or navigating a relationship. You could treat it like an inquiry story, which means that there are questions about the relationship. This is one of those things where uneven power dynamics, why is this tall dark stranger so brooding? Like, those can be things. You can also think about it, an inquiry, like [divorce?] stories. If you think of the relationship like a dead body...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] How did it die?

[Erin] Ooh!

[DongWon] The cold [open eyes?] of a divorce...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And then event stories. Event stories can be things like... One of the examples that I think of is actually Inigo Montoya's relationship with the six fingered man. That's this big, powerful thing where he's trying to change the status quo. His father was killed, he wants revenge, he wants to change the status quo. So even though they are not... They aren't on screen most of the time together, his role... His performance in that film is very much defined by his relationship with this character and the fact that he wants to kill him. So, you can do all sorts of fun things like that. And then always kind of you have those other tools that you can play with to sort of create nuance to it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I'm also wondering, like, an event... Cause the event story is like where the thing has come... The meteor is landing on Earth, like, stories where it's like it'll all be fixed on my birthday.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, in a relationship that is, like, not going well, and everyone's like... It's like when the event happens, it will definitely be the thing that, like, changes everything in a good way. Or it's like when your mom arrives. And so it becomes just, like, this impending event that... In some ways, it's about the event, but in some ways it's just about all the things that will lead up to that event.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, reveals...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] About the characters and their relationships with each other.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Exactly.

[DongWon] What I really love about thinking about this way is usually when we talk about something that is not a character being a character, we mean like settings. Like, oh, New York City was like a character in this movie.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Or whatever it is. Right? I love this image of the relationship being a character, because then the stakes are does the relationship survive? Right? Does it live or die? And seeing it as this thing that operates and moves and shifts, and it's kind of its own thing throughout the story, I think is a really useful framework for thinking about pacing and stakes and all the different aspects of the story in a way that I think is really rich and wonderful.

[Mary Robinette] I am so glad that you both liked that.


[future Mary Robinette] Hey. This is time travel Robinette. I am cutting back into the episode to say that when we finished recording this, we decided that model was a better word than monogamy, but we aren't going to re-record the whole episode. It'll just be right when you get the book. So when you tell people about it, mind, money, morals, manners, model, and mirth. And now, past Mary Robinette is going to give you your homework.


[Mary Robinette] So, I'm going to move to our homework. And I'm again going to refer to my mother-in-law.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So one of the things she said was, to my husband when he was trying to talk to her about like, how do you know, and she said, you know it's the right person when you love them because of their flaws. So what I want you to do is I want you to look at your story and see who your main character loves because of their flaws, and just write a little exploratory scene where the character is exhibiting those flaws and the other character is watching that fondly. And then write a different scene where they're mad at them and the flaws are pissing them off. So, now that you've got that homework, there's one other piece of homework that I have and you're going to get this homework again. If you want to find out when this book is coming out, you need to head over to the website and you need to sign up for the newsletter. Because that is where we're going to let people know when the book is coming out. And when you sign up, there is also a little bonus thing that you get. So, head to writing excuses.com, sign up for the newsletter, and now... You're out of excuses. Now go write.


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