Comments for Process Is The Main Thing https://mainthing.ru @ Anatoly Belaychuk's BPM Blog Fri, 20 Mar 2026 17:50:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 Comment on Message, Signal or Conditional? by Cristian https://mainthing.ru/item/900/#comment-3509 Cristian Fri, 02 Dec 2022 23:05:13 +0000 https://mainthing.ru/?p=900#comment-3509 Good to see you are posting here again! Good to see you are posting here again!

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Comment on BPMN None intermediate - throw or catch? by Anatoly Belychook https://mainthing.ru/item/898/#comment-3498 Anatoly Belychook Wed, 07 Sep 2022 06:54:19 +0000 https://mainthing.ru/?p=898#comment-3498 Разве обязательно должен быть ответный catch? А как же Terminate? Разница между throw и catch весьма существенна: throw - пришел и прошел дальше не задерживаясь, catch - стою, жду. А третьего варианта BPMN не предусматривает. Семантика intermediate none проста - это веха / milestone / смена статуса процесса. В этом согласны Брюс, Camunda и Tibco. Только Bizagi шагает не в ногу. Разве обязательно должен быть ответный catch? А как же Terminate?

Разница между throw и catch весьма существенна: throw - пришел и прошел дальше не задерживаясь, catch - стою, жду. А третьего варианта BPMN не предусматривает.

Семантика intermediate none проста - это веха / milestone / смена статуса процесса. В этом согласны Брюс, Camunda и Tibco. Только Bizagi шагает не в ногу.

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Comment on BPMN None intermediate - throw or catch? by Владимир https://mainthing.ru/item/898/#comment-3497 Владимир Tue, 06 Sep 2022 15:03:03 +0000 https://mainthing.ru/?p=898#comment-3497 Ну никак не Catch, поскольку ожидания не происходит. Ну и не Throw, поскольку ответного Catch-обработчика не предусмотрено. Конечно, можно считать, что Conditional Catch Event может быть настроен в т.ч. на Intermediate None Event, но это не в счёт. Так что на то он и None, что ни Catch, ни Throw. Ну никак не Catch, поскольку ожидания не происходит. Ну и не Throw, поскольку ответного Catch-обработчика не предусмотрено. Конечно, можно считать, что Conditional Catch Event может быть настроен в т.ч. на Intermediate None Event, но это не в счёт. Так что на то он и None, что ни Catch, ни Throw.

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Comment on The Thin Layer Called Process by Anatoly Belychook https://mainthing.ru/item/847/#comment-3355 Anatoly Belychook Wed, 05 Jul 2017 05:34:55 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=847#comment-3355 Станислав, может быть по-разному - существуют разные методологии и разные процессные фреймворки, универсальные и отраслевые. Вы правы, группировать процессы по принадлежности к функциональным подразделениям - плохая идея. Кросс-функциональный и сквозной "от и до" - это важнейшие аспекты бизнес-процесса. Станислав, может быть по-разному - существуют разные методологии и разные процессные фреймворки, универсальные и отраслевые.

Вы правы, группировать процессы по принадлежности к функциональным подразделениям - плохая идея. Кросс-функциональный и сквозной “от и до” - это важнейшие аспекты бизнес-процесса.

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Comment on The Thin Layer Called Process by Stanislav https://mainthing.ru/item/847/#comment-3353 Stanislav Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:17:00 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=847#comment-3353 Анатолий, спасибо за интересную информацию. Подскажите, что в Вашем понимании является "Группой процессов"? Это смежные процессы, сгруппированные по той или иной логике (функциональный блок / продуктовая логика / часть цепочки ценности)? При применении функциональной логики не стирается ли различие процессов с функциями? Анатолий, спасибо за интересную информацию. Подскажите, что в Вашем понимании является “Группой процессов”? Это смежные процессы, сгруппированные по той или иной логике (функциональный блок / продуктовая логика / часть цепочки ценности)? При применении функциональной логики не стирается ли различие процессов с функциями?

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Comment on More On Essential And Redundant BPMN: Events by Anatoly Belychook https://mainthing.ru/item/840/#comment-3345 Anatoly Belychook Sun, 25 Jun 2017 13:35:18 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=840#comment-3345 That's why I wrote "more or less" instead of "fully" ;) That’s why I wrote “more or less” instead of “fully” ;)

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Comment on More On Essential And Redundant BPMN: Events by Bogdan Nafornita https://mainthing.ru/item/840/#comment-3343 Bogdan Nafornita Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:11:19 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=840#comment-3343 Thanks Anatoly - my comment ref: conditional events and XOR was referring strictly to the similar cognitive burden of having to explain the two to users. I was not implying the two are syntactically similar. As for the Error vs Escalation, I agree on their different End behavior - but isn't this countering your point in this post that Error and Escalation events are more or less interchangeable? Thanks Anatoly - my comment ref: conditional events and XOR was referring strictly to the similar cognitive burden of having to explain the two to users. I was not implying the two are syntactically similar.

As for the Error vs Escalation, I agree on their different End behavior - but isn’t this countering your point in this post that Error and Escalation events are more or less interchangeable?

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Comment on More On Essential And Redundant BPMN: Events by Anatoly Belychook https://mainthing.ru/item/840/#comment-3334 Anatoly Belychook Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:54 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=840#comment-3334 Bogdan Thanks for valuable input. We do not necessarily agree but your comments are always thoughts-provoking. Camunda is great, thanks for another proof. There is a subtle difference between conditional event and xor gateway: if the condition evaluates to true then the process will continue at the gateway but stop and wait at the event set to the same condition. Most people do not realize this I guess. As for the error vs. escalation, we discussed it here http://mainthing.ru/item/446/ ages ago ) The difference between error and escalation is that the former behaves like terminator while the latter does not. I agree that the subprocess workaround does add a load yet it's more versatile and explicit so it's worth to come through it once to get more freedom and preciseness. Bogdan

Thanks for valuable input. We do not necessarily agree but your comments are always thoughts-provoking.

Camunda is great, thanks for another proof.

There is a subtle difference between conditional event and xor gateway: if the condition evaluates to true then the process will continue at the gateway but stop and wait at the event set to the same condition. Most people do not realize this I guess.

As for the error vs. escalation, we discussed it here http://mainthing.ru/item/446/ ages ago ) The difference between error and escalation is that the former behaves like terminator while the latter does not.

I agree that the subprocess workaround does add a load yet it’s more versatile and explicit so it’s worth to come through it once to get more freedom and preciseness.

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Comment on More On Essential And Redundant BPMN: Events by Bogdan Nafornita https://mainthing.ru/item/840/#comment-3333 Bogdan Nafornita Tue, 13 Jun 2017 06:57:53 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=840#comment-3333 Hi Anatoly, great post (as always)! [I would have argued in the gateway post that inclusive gateway is very useful too and it's not that difficult to explain - it's basically a parallel gateway that passes dark tokens on inactive branches - the scenario of having multiple options activated or not is very common in business and I have not found one single case where this could not be explained to a novice in as short a time as the rest of the gateways] Several comments on your current post: - conditional events are not very intuitive, but they could be helpful to model data conditionalities (especially as boundary events). Again, easy to explain (same cognitive load as XOR). BTW, camunda BPM supports conditional events. - signal events are very helpful as described in your pattern, especially if you need complex orchestration of multiple instances - the downside being the load on the process engine. Messaging is not necessarily a tight coupling and could be a solution to the load problem, especially at scale (volume + velocity of signals event stream interrogations). - error / escalation - we tend to use them with a touch of style: error is for technical handling, escalation is for business handling - I found in practice that working around specific exotic events by means of subprocesses actually adds to the cognitive load, because it is less intuitive to discern process and sub-process boundaries and scopes, than deal with the same concepts at activity level. Hi Anatoly, great post (as always)!

[I would have argued in the gateway post that inclusive gateway is very useful too and it's not that difficult to explain - it's basically a parallel gateway that passes dark tokens on inactive branches - the scenario of having multiple options activated or not is very common in business and I have not found one single case where this could not be explained to a novice in as short a time as the rest of the gateways]

Several comments on your current post:
- conditional events are not very intuitive, but they could be helpful to model data conditionalities (especially as boundary events). Again, easy to explain (same cognitive load as XOR). BTW, camunda BPM supports conditional events.
- signal events are very helpful as described in your pattern, especially if you need complex orchestration of multiple instances - the downside being the load on the process engine. Messaging is not necessarily a tight coupling and could be a solution to the load problem, especially at scale (volume + velocity of signals event stream interrogations).
- error / escalation - we tend to use them with a touch of style: error is for technical handling, escalation is for business handling
- I found in practice that working around specific exotic events by means of subprocesses actually adds to the cognitive load, because it is less intuitive to discern process and sub-process boundaries and scopes, than deal with the same concepts at activity level.

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Comment on Essential And Redundant BPMN Elements: Gateways by Anatoly Belychook https://mainthing.ru/item/813/#comment-3297 Anatoly Belychook Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:57:01 +0000 http://mainthing.ru/?p=813#comment-3297 Статья неплохая по содержанию, но хамская по форме. И она точно не про упрощение. Оставлю ваш комментарий в виде исключения, но обсуждать ее тут не надо. Статья неплохая по содержанию, но хамская по форме. И она точно не про упрощение. Оставлю ваш комментарий в виде исключения, но обсуждать ее тут не надо.

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